The Assembly met at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the Members to order.

Statement by the Llywydd

Before I call the first item on the agenda, I wish to inform the Assembly that I have received a letter from four Members notifying me of their wish to form a group in accordance with Standing Order 1.3. I am considering this issue, in accordance with my duty under the Standing Orders, and I will notify the Assembly of my conclusion in due course.
Point of order, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Further to that statement, which I appreciate, Presiding Officer, I would also like to ask you to consider these matters under Standing Order 1.4, where you are given a level of discretion. There are Members on all sides of this Chamber who are deeply disturbed at the undermining of our democracy by events today. These chancers did not stand for election under any party label they are using today. They are using this in order to access public resources and public money without standing for election or seeking the consent of anybody in any constituency or region in any part of Wales. None of them have had their names on a ballot paper. It undermines the democracy we were celebrating only last week. Members on all sides of the Chamber have very deep reservations and concerns over this matter, of which I know you are aware, Presiding Officer, and I hope that you will be able to use some discretion available to you to consider these matters over a period of time that will allow Members to consider their own thoughts and their own responses to this announcement.

I’m grateful to the Member for his advice at all times, and I can assure the Member and other Members that I am most aware of every element of the Standing Orders that will advise and guide me in coming to conclusions on these issues.
Also before the first item of business this afternoon, I wish to inform the Assembly that the Renting homes (Fees, etc.) (Wales) Bill, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, was given Royal Assent today.

1. Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

This now brings us to the questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Farm Income

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's response to the forecasted decrease in farm income? OAQ53843

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Volatility is a feature of the farming sector, and businesses need to be resilient to deal with price and cost fluctuations. Welsh Government continues to support and equip farming businesses with tools to improve their understanding and control their cost of production.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. The recently published forecasts of farm incomes in Wales provides very worrying information about the sector. It reports that the average farm business income for the combined all-farm types is expected to decrease by 15 per cent to £29,500 per farm from the previous year. The situation is even more serious for dairy farmers, who are forecasted—sorry, I need my specs—a 23 per cent fall, and lowland cattle and sheep farmers, who are expected to have an average income of just £17,000. As John Davies, National Farmers Union Cymru president stated, the forecasts show the volatility all farm types in Wales are subjected to and reinforce the need for future agricultural policy in Wales to include a central volatility stability component. Will you consider introducing an agricultural volatility grant that farmers can turn to for support when market changes render continued business operation and food production financially perilous? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm obviously very aware of the information that was published. I think there's been a call—. Since we went out to consultation on 'Brexit and our land' last year—the first consultation—there's certainly been a call to have a component for volatility. I think it also shows that the basic payment scheme hasn't provided that cushion that farmers want to see. Members will be aware that I'm doing an oral statement very soon around the first consultation from 'Brexit and our land', and I have committed to go into a second consultation ahead of the Royal Welsh Show. So, obviously, these are things that can all be considered in that consultation.

Species at Risk of Extinction

Joyce Watson AC: 2. What assessment has the Minister made of the United Nations report which states that one million species are at risk of extinction as a direct result of human activity? OAQ53855

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Llywydd, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 2 and 3 to be grouped.

Yes, I had, but the Member asking question 3 is not in the Chamber. So, the grouping cannot therefore be grouped. So, answer the question as question 2.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I hadn't noticed the Member wasn't present, sorry.
I'm gravely concerned about the global loss of biodiversity. The legislation we have introduced requires all public bodies, including Welsh Ministers, to proactively maintain and enhance biodiversity through the decisions they make. We also provide financial and practical support to community groups to take action in their local area.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for that answer. Minister, the inter-governmental science policy platform on biodiversity and ecosystem services report ranked five direct drivers of change in nature with the largest global impacts being change in land and sea use, direct exploitation of organisms, climate change, pollution, including slurry, pesticides and herbicides, and invasive species. The impacts of these human activities on biodiversity have been catastrophic, particularly in recent years. However, despite that, the report does go on to be quite positive and it does say that it's not too late to make a difference, but only if action is taken at every single level, from local to global. And through that transformative change, nature can still recover.
I know that you've outlined some of the changes that are being made, and you know that I repeatedly call for action on slurry and other usage. So, what immediate action is the Welsh Government planning now to at least halt and then also reverse the damage that is being done?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Certainly, the report that was published last week is deeply worrying, but, like you, I was very pleased that the global assessment did recognise that it's not too late to reverse a trend, but it does require that transformative change to which you referred. I do think that we're ahead of the game in recognising that biodiversity underpins our economic and our social well-being, and it's, I think, as big a challenge as climate change. We've got our world-leading and groundbreaking legislation and our policy to manage our natural resources sustainably.
We've got our natural resources policy, which sets out our priorities to enable us to reverse decline. I want to achieve more resilient ecosystems, and we'll do that through the policy. We've also got our nature recovery action plan, and I've asked for a refresh of that. That's currently under way, and that's going to report back before the end of the year.
I absolutely hear what you say about slurry and agricultural pollution, and you'll be aware of the regulations that I'm bringing in next January. I'm still working very closely with stakeholders on the voluntary initiatives because I think it's better to have that twin approach.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, I'm sure everyone in the Chamber will agree that the UN report makes for very sober reading and highlights the urgency that is required in protecting our wildlife.
The report identifies that one of the direct drivers of decline in species is pollution, which, of course, includes plastic pollution. Plastic pollution is a huge problem and, as the Atlantic puffin species champion, I am concerned about the impact marine plastic may have on the puffin population in Wales, particularly those on Skomer island.
Puffins, whilst they are doing relatively well in Wales, are currently on the amber list of UK birds of conservation concern as they are vulnerable to adverse changes in the environment because their breeding population is concentrated on a small number of sites. As such, increases in marine plastic pollution puts pressure on puffins in both Wales and the wider environment. In the circumstances, what specific work is the Welsh Government doing to reduce the amount of waste that actually ends up in our ocean so that we help to clean up our seas to protect our marine wildlife for future generations?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think I'm going to hear from a lot of Members about the species that they're champions for this afternoon, looking at the questions.
I think the Member raises a very important point about marine pollution, and certainly there have been several campaigns that have highlighted that. I'm working very closely with my colleague the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government around the waste agenda. There are several initiatives that we're bringing forward, but we do appreciate that we're going to have to do far more in regard to this. I think behavioural change is also very important, in the way that we did it with recycling, and that's something that we're looking at this year also.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, I do understand the position you've taken on farm plastics and the disposal of farm plastics. It is a commercial decision, in the relationship between operators and farm businesses. But the regulations that surround farm plastics and the storage of farm plastics is obviously a Government regulation. Have you given any consideration to being a facilitator to try and overcome some of the blockages in the system at the moment, which obviously mean that there is a considerable amount of on-farm plastics now being stored, because the market, basically, has dried up on its disposal? As I said, I'm not looking to you to put financial solutions in place, but there is a role for Government in understanding the regulations that they impose on the industry and trying to be a facilitator to try and break the deadlock so that a solution can be found.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You are right—it is a commercial matter between the farmers, the collectors of the plastic farm waste and the plants that can, and do, recycle it. Obviously, farmers have a responsibility to ensure their plastic is disposed of correctly.
I think farmers also recognise, of course, it's important to collect and treat the waste, and all other businesses have to pay for their recycling here in Wales. Having said that, officials have been in discussions with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. DEFRA, specifically, didn't include farm plastic film on the list of candidate products for extended producer responsibility. We thought that was something that perhaps should be covered in a UK- wide scheme, and I've asked officials to continue to look at that. I can't guarantee that DEFRA will do it, but I think it's something that we could make, perhaps, some progress on.
We could look at introducing an EPR scheme ourselves. So, again, I've asked officials to look at the options for that.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Any assistance, obviously, the Government can give to being a facilitator to solving the problem, I think, would be very welcome, as I said, given the amount of on-farm plastics that are used and, ultimately, moving to a scenario in years to come where plastics aren't used and there are alternatives.
But I would like to take you up on the statistics that you gave me in the last questioning that we did on farm pollution. You very kindly corrected the record, because, at that time, you said there'd been a 200 per cent increase in the instances when, in fact, it was just under 200 instances. If you look back over the 20 years' worth of figures that Natural Resources Wales provide, they clearly show that the parameters are, in a good year, about 100 instances, and, in a bad year, under 200—194 is the highest, which, I believe, was hit in 2012-13. Given that these parameters have been relatively constant over the last 20 years, do you think that it is right that you've brought such draconian measures in rather than listening to, obviously, your own working group, which you set up yourself, that set up this document for you to consider with cross-sector buy-in to the recommendations that were brought forward? And, surely, the recommendations contained in this report offer a blueprint to go forward for the agricultural industry, given the evidence that this group collated.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Llywydd, I also wrote to you and placed a copy of that letter in the library for Members to be able to access.
I don't see it as draconian. I have heard that word used. We have seen an increase in the number of major polluting incidents, and I'm sure you yourself have seen them, and, certainly, in my discussions with the farming unions, they themselves accept that this is unacceptable and more needs to be done.
I've had a lot of correspondence on the incidents. The new regulations will come into force next January. There will be transitional periods for some elements. But you will have heard me say in my answer to Joyce Watson that I'm continuing to work with the group that you refer to. Obviously, I've had their report. NFU Cymru have employed somebody specifically to look at this. I've met with her, and officials are still continuing to have discussions. But I think it's really important that we stop these major agricultural pollutants. I'm also the Minister for environment, and I have a lot of correspondence from people, particularly about the state of rivers, following some of these major incidents.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I think we'd all agree that we want to see pollution incidents pushed back and down, and, hopefully, towards zero level, but, sadly, we know that's most probably impossible. But, as I said, with the 20-year projection, which is shared by Natural Resources Wales, there hasn't been this massive increase and, in fact, it's in line with pollution instances over those 20 years. As I said, you did bring this working group together, and they did bring a blueprint out, which had recommendations contained in it. You chose not to sign up to those recommendations and go for the belt-and-braces approach that, basically, could put many businesses out in vulnerable communities the length and breadth of Wales because those regulations are so draconian.
I'd be pleased to understand—I'm sure many would be pleased to understand—why you did not take up the recommendations within this report that was brought together from all sections of interested parties and, as I said, was a blueprint to take these regulations forward, which everyone has signed up to do, to drive down agricultural pollution across Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, when I first came into post, which was three years ago, I was very keen to have a voluntary approach. I worked with the farming unions, with other stakeholders, to do that, but we did see an increase in the agricultural pollution. And we're still seeing—[Interruption.] No, we're still seeing a significant number of major polluting incidents. We had one—I think it was the week before last or the week before that—where the entire slurry store, unfortunately, was there polluting the land and the water. So, I think it's really important that we get to grips with this, particularly in light of Brexit. This will damage our sustainable value brand if we don't get on top of it now.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I want to refer, if I may, to the consultation document of your own Government on disposing of radioactive waste—geological disposal. Now, I will quote from that document, and it says:
'Radioactive waste disposal is a devolved matter—the Welsh Government is responsible for determining the policy for this within Wales'.
But, looking at paragraph 99 of Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006, that states that powers over nuclear energy and nuclear installations are reserved. That reservation includes nuclear safety and accountability for nuclear incidents. There are no exceptions as far as I can see, no carve-outs, as there are in the Scottish context, and, in the explanatory note of the Government of Wales Act 2017, it states entirely clearly in paragraph 99 that it reserves all related issues to nuclear energy and nuclear installations. Can you therefore confirm to us this afternoon that legislating on disposal of radioactive material is beyond the competence of this Assembly, which is contrary to what you claim in your own consultation document?

Lesley Griffiths AC: The radioactive waste management disposal, which I think is what you're referring to, is not the same as nuclear waste. The higher activity radioactive waste has been created in Wales, and that's why Welsh Government agreed to take part in the UK Government programme for its disposal.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, perhaps you can explain to us, therefore, what the role of the Welsh Government is in looking at where that nuclear waste, which has been in the news recently, is going. Because it’s clear to me that that is not devolved. Indeed, paragraph 3(2)(4) of Schedule 23 to the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016, and I will quote in English, states:

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'If it appears to the Secretary of State'—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: on a UK level—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'that adequate facilities are not available for the safe disposal or accumulation of radioactive waste, the Secretary of State may—
(a) provide such facilities, or
(b) make arrangements for their provision by such persons as the Secretary of State may think fit.'

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I will ask again, therefore: does the Welsh Government have sufficient powers in order to veto any site that is identified for nuclear waste—radioactive waste, to make the distinction that you made in your previous response? Because, again, it appears to me that the Secretary of State has the final say.

Lesley Griffiths AC: We made it very clear as a Government—and certainly the UK Government as well—that we didn't identify any sites, the UK Government didn't identify any sites. It was for a community to decide if they wanted to be a site. So, the work that was undertaken, the consultation meetings—well, they were then done on a webinar, as you know, one in south Wales and one in north Wales—were for communities to come forward if they wanted to put their community forward. It's not for the Welsh Government to veto or the UK Government to veto; it's absolutely for the communities themselves. And we did not have a view on whether there should be any site here in Wales; it was for the community to be willing to host it and in those discussions going forward. So, it's not for anybody—either Government—to veto it.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, I don’t quite understand the point that you’re making, because, at the end of the day, it's a decision for Government. I understand the fact that you wish to respect the views of communities, and I would agree with you in that regard, but the environmental licensing regulations make it entirely clear, and I will read again:

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'If it appears to the Secretary of State that adequate facilities are not available'—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: that is, where a community doesn’t want responsibility in this area—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'the Secretary of State may—
(a) provide such facilities'—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: a veto, so it’s going to happen come what may—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 'or
(b) make arrangements for their provision by such persons as the Secretary of State may think fit.'

Llyr Gruffydd AC: It appears to me, Minister, that there is confusion here. We should have far greater clarity, and certainly the Welsh Government should should be far clearer on where responsibility lies, and throwing it back and saying,‘Well, it’s not up to us; it’s up to the community’—the principle is fine, but, at the end of the day, you are the Minister, you are the Government, and you should be making the case for the people of Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I absolutely agree that it's right that we manage the waste now. I don't think we should leave it for future generations. Certainly, when I came into this portfolio and this was a question that was sort of bubbling around, and there would be these consultations going forward, I felt it was absolutely right that we dealt with it now, even though it's probably in 20 years' time that this would actually happen, rather than leaving it for future generations. My understanding is, as I set out to you in my earlier answers to your questions, that it would be for a community to be willing to host it, it wasn't for Governments—either Government; UK Government or Welsh Government—to impose on it. I'd be very happy to write to the Member if that is not clarifying his questions enough, but, certainly, a geological disposal facility can only be built in Wales if a community is willing to host it.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Species Decline

Leanne Wood AC: 3. How will the Welsh Government respond to the threat posed by species decline? OAQ53860

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am gravely concerned about the global loss of biodiversity. The legislation we've introduced requires all public bodies, including Welsh Ministers, to proactively maintain and enhance biodiversity through the decisions they make. We also provide financial and practical support to community groups to take action in their local area.

Leanne Wood AC: This month's United Nations report on species decline will, hopefully, be a wake-up call for leaders right across the world. One million species may be pushed to extinction in the next few years. Unless we take drastic action, we as a human species are going to follow them. This isn't a far away problem, for we've seen the same trends here in Wales. The state of nature report reveals that, in Wales, one in 14 species is heading for extinction. Fifty-seven per cent of wild plants, 60 per cent of butterflies and 40 per cent of birds are in decline. The 'State of Birds in Wales 2018' report highlighted that almost a third of birds in Wales are declining significantly. The picture isn't any rosier for fish stocks, as many species, such as salmon, sea trout and sewin, are all at risk all over Wales.
Now, I welcome the declaration of a climate emergency by this Government, but I cannot reconcile this position with the First Minister's assertion that it did not represent, and I quote, 'a sharp difference in policy.' Was that declaration a public relations stunt, and, more importantly, is your First Minister, and indeed this Government as a whole, not paying attention to the warning signs?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely not. I think the First Minister, from the day he came into post back in December, has made it very clear that biodiversity and climate change mitigation are absolutely one of his top priorities. We all have to look at biodiversity right across Government in relation to our policies.
You're absolutely right—that report last week was hugely concerning. I was saying in my answer to Joyce Watson that it's certainly very sobering reading. You'll be aware that we have the low-carbon delivery plan; again, the First Minister launched it back in March. The proposals and policies—there are 100 policies and proposals in that that, if we implement them, will make great strides in relation to biodiversity and climate change. I was saying that I think biodiversity is as much of a threat as climate change; it's right up there.
You'll also be aware that I, myself, and my Scottish counterparts and UK Government counterparts, asked the UK climate change commission for some advice on the back of the inter-governmental panel report into whether we would reach the levels required by the Paris agreement. I received that advice a week last Thursday. I've met with the UK Committee on Climate Change, some of the members, on two occasions in the past fortnight. Officials are now digesting that advice—it's about 300 pages—to see whether we do need to change our policies, but you will appreciate the low-carbon delivery plan was only launched in March, and I think we need to carry on with those policies and proposals. But it could be that we need to change.
The declaration, I think, was a very positive and strong declaration. I think you can only use the word 'emergency' very sparingly; it's not a word that you can throw around. So, a great deal of thought went into that, and I was very pleased that this Parliament voted then to be the first—we were the first Parliament in the world to endorse that climate change emergency. So, there's a huge amount of work to do. We need to check all our policies and proposals, but I do think we need to start with that low-carbon delivery plan, ensure that we take that forward. But it is absolutely something that we're all looking at across Government.

Nick Ramsay AC: I'm pleased that Leanne Wood has asked this question. As you're probably aware, I'm delighted to be the Assembly's species champion for—I can see you leafing over to your page on species champions; well versed—the freshwater pearl mussel, one of the lesser known of the protected species, which is arguably Wales's most endangered species, and one of the most critically endangered species in the world. Now, a healthy population of freshwater pearl mussels is actually a barometer of a healthy river ecosystem. Their decline is due to the fact that they do need very pure water. So, I wonder if you could explain to us, Minister, in addition to what you've told Leanne Wood, what measures is the Welsh Government taking to seek to improve water quality in our rivers across Wales, in a way that will have a positive impact on the survival chances of my species, the freshwater pearl mussel, but also other species as well?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As I say, I think the report was very sobering and very concerning, but I was pleased that it recognised that it's not too late to reverse the trend that we have seen. It's not just up to Government, it's up to everybody, and I think, going back to Leanne Wood's comments around the climate change emergency, that was about galvanising not just Governments but individuals and businesses and communities into action to realise that it is indeed an emergency and we don't have that long to reverse what is happening.
What we're doing is mainstreaming biodiversity into all our decision making. So, when I'm looking at marine policies, for instance, I need to ensure that we are supporting the ecosystem that will ensure that your species does not go into further decline.

Mike Hedges AC: The ecosystem runs in equilibrium, but the loss of predators at the top of the food chain is going to lead to some species expanding, causing further damage to the ecosystem. We're amidst the largest period of species extinction in the last 60 million years. Habitat destruction, exploitation and climate change are driving the loss of over half the world's wild animal population. What is the Welsh Government doing to protect the natural habitat of Wales? Especially, what are you doing to stop people taking action that stops birds nesting? I'm not a species champion for any bird.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We have our natural resources policy, and that obviously sets out our priorities to enable us to reverse the decline in biodiversity and achieve more resilient ecosystems. I mentioned in my answer to Joyce Watson that we're refreshing the nature recovery action plan, because that will then give us the key actions and mechanisms that we will need to take forward to make that real difference.
Netting is an issue that's come across my desk quite frequently in the last few weeks, and I think it's really important that developers understand that that policy is there only to be used very sparingly and very specifically, and I will be writing out to local authorities to remind them of that.

Biodiversity Loss

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 4. What steps will the Welsh Government take to halt and reverse biodiversity loss? OAQ53864

Vikki Howells AC: 10. Will the Minister outline what actions the Welsh Government is taking to promote biodiversity? OAQ53839

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Presiding Officer, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 4 and 10 to be grouped.
Halting and reversing biodiversity in Wales requires transformational change, and this Welsh Government is determined to be the catalyst. Our focus now must be on building on the actions already under way. We will build on the action we are doing through major new policies, including our Wales marine plan, a refreshed nature recovery action plan, a national forest for Wales, and a new system of support for farming post Brexit.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome that response. As many others, I'm a species champion. I'm the species champion for lapwing here in the Assembly, and we know that we've gone from 7,500 breeding pairs within Wales since the 1980s to now fewer than 700, despite good work by people such as the Wildlife Trusts and others. The IPBES report shows the scale of the challenge, and we do face—. Whichever way you want to frame it, it is a crisis, it is an emergency, and it's not a new one. It's one that we've faced repeatedly through successive Governments as well, at a UK and a Wales level.
One appeal that I would make to the Minister in seeking to galvanise her and seeking to help her in terms of discussions with Cabinet colleagues is that we should try and address climate change and biodiversity together. Whilst they will have separate strands, there is a great deal of overlap in this, and too often within Government we've done one or the other and focused from time to time. Both need to be done together.
Secondly, and recognising the good work that the Government is doing already, about how we're going to need to step this up, and recognising that we have a progressive Minister here in front of us, could I suggest—just make some suggestions? And the First Minister, I hope, will be listening, so I'm adding to her strength here around the Cabinet table. We will need to look at the resources going forward and increasing the resources towards funding of halting and reversing biodiversity loss and the loss of nature. We will need to commit, carte blanche, to say that we will restore, enhance, connect all our important habitats, and actively invest in the recovery of species. We may need to consider legal targets for nature's recovery. We will need to look at ramping up step change in sustainable biodiversity-based food systems within Wales, and all that brings with it, and using nature-based solutions in a real, meaningful way, as highlighted in the IPBES report.

You do now need to ask a question.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Indeed. Could I then ask, after those helpful suggestions—? Diolch, Llywydd. I'm sorry. I've tested your patience. Could I then ask: would she explore with Cabinet colleagues radical action that could include using our tax-varying powers in Wales to look at banning, taxing or even putting environmental levies on environmental bads to fund environmental goods?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Huw Irranca-Davies, for your helpful comments and, certainly, your help with my ministerial colleagues. Certainly, I don't think that I need any help with the First Minister. As I said in my answer to Leanne Wood, the First Minister, from the day that he came into post, has made it very clear that climate change and biodiversity—and I think you're quite right, it is a twin-track approach—is one of his top priorities. Certainly, as we go through the budget process, biodiversity is a theme that will be looked at very closely, alongside all colleagues who are making budget agreements and policies, going forward.
You will have heard me say that the report was deeply concerning, but, as I say, there was a positive element to it, in the fact that it's not too late to do that. You do make two very helpful suggestions. The one about legal targets: I remember when the environment Act was going through this place about four or five years ago, it was looked at whether an introduction of biodiversity targets into that Bill would be an effective method of improving biodiversity in Wales. But, I think that it was decided that it would not—that, in fact, it could have a perverse outcome. So, that wasn't the way forward.
In relation to using our new tax-raising powers, again, I can give full consideration to that, along with my colleague the Minister for Finance, as to whether that would give us an opportunity. We've already got the landfill disposals tax scheme, which the Member will be aware of, and we've seen some significant funding going into those schemes to help in that way.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I, too, wanted to ask a question on the IPBES report, and note your earlier answers. I think the fact that so many of us have asked questions around biodiversity today shows just how important the topic is to all of us. So, I would like to ask you about how you intend to retain and enhance environmental protections derived from the EU. I know that the RSPB has mentioned creating a strong, independent watchdog to receive and act on citizens' complaints, and the need to guarantee that our laws are as strong, or are stronger than, as a member of the EU. So, what are your thoughts on this?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you for that question. Certainly, I've made it very clear that we don't want to see any diminishment of our environmental protections that we've had in the EU. If anything, we want to enhance them. The Member will be aware that we are out to consultation on governance and principles at the current time. That consultation closes on 9 June. I would encourage everybody to put forward their responses. Certainly, I am working with stakeholders and seeking their views and advice in relation to post Brexit.
You will be aware of the ministerial round-table that I have, and the RSPB are a member of my round-table. They've certainly mentioned that we could look at a strong, independent watchdog. Clearly, there are organisations in place at the current time that could look at that, but we want to ensure that there's no gap from leaving the EU. So, when we have the consultation responses, and we've had a chance to consider those, then we will be able to come forward with whether we think that that is actually the way forward. But, certainly, there has to be somewhere where citizens can go, post Brexit, if they can't go to the European court like they can at the current time.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, the red squirrel is the species that I'm the species champion of, and I'm very fortunate to have a good red squirrel population in the Clocaenog forest in my own constituency and, indeed, a breeding centre in the Welsh Mountain Zoo in Colwyn Bay. But the red squirrel population has fallen to about 1,500 red squirrels across Wales at the moment. Most of them are on the isle of Anglesey. I've been fortunate enough to have visited the projects both in Anglesey and in Clocaenog, and I know that one of the challenges that the projects face is the continuity of funding from one project to the next. So I wonder what action the Welsh Government can take in order that there can be a more sustainable approach to funding for the core activities of organisations like the Clocaenog Red Squirrel Trust and the Red Squirrels Trust Wales, which has undertaken some very important work in protecting this iconic species here in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm very pleased, Llywydd, that I brought my list of species champions for Assembly Members this afternoon. I'm obviously very aware of the red squirrel population in the forest that the Member refers to. NRW are working very closely with the Red Squirrels Trust Wales through their Red Squirrels United project, and that's really engaged a significant number of volunteers to establish the Clocaenog Red Squirrel Trust. Obviously funding is an issue that I have to look at on a case-by-case basis. I want to make as many projects like this as I can sustainable, so we will be looking at that in the next round of sustainable management grants.

Climate Change

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to address climate change? OAQ53862

Lesley Griffiths AC: 'Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales' sets out 100 policies and proposals to meet our current carbon budget and set a longer term decarbonisation trajectory for Wales. We have subsequently become the first parliament in the world to vote in favour of the declaration of a climate emergency.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Weinidog. It's one thing to declare a climate change emergency, but as I'm sure you would admit, it's more difficult to take the difficult steps to deal with that. As former American Vice-President Al Gore described it, it's an inconvenient truth that we all must face up to. Promoting electric cars and charging points, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has been doing outside the Senedd today, is clearly one way forward to try and address things on the ground. There's also some radical work going on on the issue of climate repair at Cambridge university, which has been looking at carbon sinks and issues such as reforestation. What are you doing to promote similar research here in Wales, and how are you promoting the development in future of carbon sinks such as new forests to make sure that we don't just deal with the issue of the problems you've got at the moment, but in the future perhaps we can turn the clock back in some ways and try and improve the climate, not just stabilise it?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You will have heard me mention in an earlier answer that the reason we declared a climate emergency was to ensure that we did galvanise not just Governments but businesses, communities and individuals to take action now. It's very important we take action now. You suggest a couple of ways we can do this, and I go back to the low-carbon delivery plan. There are 100 policies and proposals, some of them for the future, that we need to do if we are going to decarbonise and have this positive impact on climate change.
I mentioned businesses. I was very pleased to meet with Hafren Dyfrdwy, which Members will be aware of—the water company—last week. They were telling me, for instance, they've taken a triple pledge to achieve net zero carbon and 100 per cent electric vehicles, going back to what you were saying about electric vehicles, and 100 per cent energy from renewable sources by 2030. It’s that sort of action that we need to take in order to address the climate change emergency. So, I'm looking very carefully at those proposals and policies that the First Minister introduced in March. I mentioned about the UK Committee on Climate Change advice that we've been given, and officials are currently looking at the 300 pages of advice. They've suggested that we are able to achieve 95 per cent carbon emission reduction by 2050, so I need to look at that very carefully, and then we'll bring forward a further statement.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Minister, the Welsh Labour Government has shown strong strategic and stable leadership for the Welsh nation by declaring a climate emergency, as acknowledged by climate extinction activist Greta Thunberg. Recently the Welsh Government received advice from the Committee on Climate Change recommending that emissions of greenhouse gases in Wales can and must fall by 95 per cent over the next 30 years to make our ambitious contribution to the commitments made in the Paris agreement. Minister, you've also statedthat the Welsh Government has agreed to review Wales's 2050 target and report back to the National Assembly before setting the third Wales carbon budget by the end of 2020. So, therefore, what further strategic initiatives are the Welsh Government considering to proactively meet the climate emergency, so that Wales can lead by example, showing up the shocking vacuum of leadership from the likes of climate denier Donald Trump and those in the UK who share that political view?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I mentioned that officials are currently digesting the advice we had from the UK CCC, but we are also reviewing the urgency of actions in our low-carbon plan to see where we can take further action following the declaration. I chair the ministerial task and finish group—which is a cross-Government group—and I've made it a priority for that group to have a look at how we can address that. We fully recognise the urgency of tackling climate change. We may be a small country, but we take our responsibility globally very, very seriously, and we need to do it in a way that maximises the wider benefits for society as we move to a low-carbon economy.
I go back to what I was saying. I think it was really important to make that declaration, to galvanise others to have that trigger—a wave of action at home and internationally, for everybody to come together to recognise the crisis that we do have. Wales is part of the Under2 coalition—we're actually on the steering group—and I've been very fortunate to attend conferences with other states and regions to see the work that's done right across the world. The coalition is made up of about 220 governments right across the world, and they represent over 1.3 billion people and 43 per cent of the global economy. It's important that we learn from other countries, but I think it is only through taking action at home that we can stimulate other actions right across the world.

The Food and Drink Industry

Russell George AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government supports and promotes the food and drink industry in mid Wales? OAQ53838

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is supporting the growth of the food and drink industry across all of Wales. A £10 million call for proposals for investment in food businesses opened at the beginning of May. I intend to publish a consultation on future plans to develop the food and drink industry beyond 2020 by July.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. Later today, I'm a supporter of Jenny Rathbone's motion in regard to healthy school meals. In particular, I would like to see an increase in the amount of food for schools being procured locally. Can I ask, what is the Welsh Government doing to assist local authorities, such as Powys County Council and others, to source ingredients locally, where that is, indeed, possible, to improve food traceability, reduce food mileage and to ensure that school meals can be fresher, tastier, more nutritious, better for the environment and better for the local economy?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Absolutely. So, again, this is cross-Government working with several Ministers to ensure this happens. I think procurement is an area where we have a big opportunity. If we're clutching opportunities post Brexit, I think this is one area that we can do that. And as you say, if we buy local produce, it helps not just our farmers and our food producers, but also our climate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I think one thing that’s important in terms of food production companies in mid Wales, like my constituency in Anglesey, is to ensure that there is enough appropriate property available for businesses who wish to develop in this area. I do have a letter that’s ready to be sent to you—and I will do that today—about the principle of ensuring that there are adequate premises available. And I would welcome a pledge from you that you would be willing to work with me, as with other Members representing mid Wales, on ways of ensuring that those kinds of premises are available. Because in my constituency recently, a number of businesses have grown in the food sector, but I still think premises provided specifically for them would work better.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think the Member makes a very important point. We've had discussions about this over the last two or three years, and if we're going to see these hubs developing, I think it's really important that we have food production standard buildings to go along with it. Obviously, we've got the food innovation centre in Llangefni, so I think it does lend itself to having that sort of food zone, if you like. So, I'd be very happy. I'll await your letter, and then we can take it from there.

The Management of Natural Resources

Darren Millar AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's national strategy for the management of natural resources? OAQ53841

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I published the natural resources policy in August 2017. This was the second statutory product of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. The focus of the natural resources policy is the sustainable management of Wales's natural resources, to maximise their contribution to achieving goals within the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Darren Millar AC: One of the huge opportunities that our natural resources afford us is recreational opportunities that are linked in with the ambitious plans to improve tourism here in Wales. Our forests, I think, are one part of our natural resources that are underutilised for tourism and recreation purposes. We're very fortunate in north Wales, both in the Llandegla forest and in and around the Clocaenog forest, to enjoy some wonderful mountain biking opportunities, which are growing in their popularity. What work is the Welsh Government doing to support those very small organisations, very often, that are trying to open up further opportunities for mountain biking in particular in Welsh forests where Natural Resources Wales are managing them?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you make a very important point about our forests and you'll be aware that one of the First Minister's manifesto commitments was to bring forward a national forest. At the moment, he and I are going to consider options as to how we bring that forward. Obviously, I know Llandegla forest very well, I live not far from it, and certainly the extra funding it brings into the economy, for instance, with the mountain bike centre and other facilities is to be welcomed. I think I can certainly continue to work with my colleague the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to see what else we can do to enhance that.

Question 8 [OAQ53846] was withdrawn, even though the Member Caroline Jones is in the Chamber to have asked it.

Question 9, Dai Lloyd.

Air Pollution in South Wales West

Dai Lloyd AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on tackling air pollution in South Wales West? OAQ53833

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Tackling air pollution in South Wales West and across Wales remains a top priority for the Welsh Government. Actions to improve air quality across a range of sectors, including agriculture, transport and industry, will be in our clean air plan for Wales, which will be consulted on this autumn, building on our clean air Wales programme.

Dai Lloyd AC: Following a very effective campaign by local residents, an application for a waste-to-energy incinerator in Llansamlet was thankfully rejected by Swansea council's planning committee last week. However, what has become apparent is that current Welsh Government policy on incinerators is not in keeping with the concerns of local people on air pollution, toxic ash and carbon dioxide, particularly when they are proposed close to residential areas and schools. We have heard of similar concerns in Barry and people are understandably calling for a tightening of Welsh Government policy on this issue. Do you recognise those concerns and is the Welsh Government prepared to reconsider its policy on incineration to bring its waste management policy in line with more sustainable solutions?

Lesley Griffiths AC: This is a matter that falls within the remit of my colleague the Minister for Housing and Local Government, who is now going to answer questions. But I'll be very happy to have a discussion with her and write to the Member.

David Rees AC: Minister, as you know, I've raised the issue many times about pollution in my constituency from industrial emissions. One of the agendas we want to look at is the cumulative effect of any proposal that comes forward for any incinerator or any other aspect, to look at how that impacts upon the community in addition to what's already there. Will you meet with your colleague from Cabinet Julie James to discuss how the planning rules can be looked at to show that cumulative effects have to be taken into consideration, so that when it comes to any industrial emissions we're looking at what's already there as well, not just that single proposal?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, absolutely. Having been the planning Minister not that long ago, I'm very aware of that and the impact on policy. The Minister heard your request and will be very happy to do that.

Suzy Davies AC: At the start of February, Minister, I asked whether Welsh Government would consider putting money into helping councils upgrade their public transport to make them greener and less polluting. At the time, you told me that the idea was something that you'd be very happy to discuss with the transport Minister Ken Skates. That's three months ago now, so I'm wondering if you can update me on how your conversations are going.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I will write to the Member with that, because off the top of my head I'm not aware that I've actually had that meeting. So, I will ensure that happens and write to the Member.

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

The next item is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from Lynne Neagle.

The Planning System

Lynne Neagle AC: 1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that local communities have a voice in the planning system? OAQ53865

Julie James AC: Communities have a central voice in the planning system when local development plans are prepared and planning applications determined. Local planning authorities and developers are encouraged to go further than the statutory minimum to realise the benefits that collaboration and involvement brings to the quality of the built environment.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. I know that you're aware of the huge opposition to the proposal to start recovering aggregate at the much-loved beauty spot called 'The Canyons' in my constituency. I, of course, understand you can't comment on a live planning appeal, but, as you know, residents were deeply concerned about whether their voices had been fully heard at the lengthy public inquiry. I've had complaints about key documents being submitted late by developers, statements of common ground being submitted just the night before the inquiry, and no verbatim record being taken of proceedings, to name but a few. Minister, would you agree with me that it is crucial in contentious planning inquiries that the voice of the community is fully heard? And what steps can you take as Minister to enure that this happens and also that the whole process becomes more open and transparent?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very grateful for the Member's well-articulated views on the involvement of communities in planning appeals, which she shared with me in the meeting that we had. I have raised these concerns with the Planning Inspectorate's director for Wales. I know my colleague is well aware that the planning appeal is currently before the Welsh Ministers for determination, and understands that I can't comment on any aspect of the case because to do so could prejudice the outcome of the decision or risk a challenge to the decision itself.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, last year, the Local Government and Communities Committee of the Scottish Parliament reported on the Planning (Scotland) Bill. They called for the Bill to encourage more meaningful engagement on planning applications. This approach was welcomed by the Royal Town Planning Institute Scotland, which said that they wanted to create a more collaborative planning system, where communities and other partners are engaged at the start of the process to identify and agree what is needed. What study has the Minister made of the proposals contained in the Planning (Scotland) Bill to see what lessons can be learned to enhance the voice of communities in the planning process in Wales, please?

Julie James AC: I'm very aware of the process going on in Scotland. We have a very transparent and comprehensive engagement with local communities, businesses, stakeholders and neighbouring authorities in our local development plan process already to ensure all concerns and aspirations are taken into account. We also have a community involvement scheme, which sets out how local communities can engage in the LDP process. The planning legislation here in Wales already says that the views of local communities must be taken into account when preparing the local development plan.
As you know, I'm sure, local development plans must be adopted by a resolution of the full council, which ensures a democratic process, taking into account local views to be incorporated in that decision-making process, and they are adopted following a full public scrutiny process where all interested parties can, and very frequently do, make their views known to an independent inspector. There also follows a six-week challenge period after the plan is adopted, enabling any person to object if they consider the correct preparation procedures have not been adhered to.
Many Members, however, have made some other submissions to me over the years about how various bits of the planning system, particularly the development control system, could be made more open and transparent. I've recently announced that we're looking at seeing whether we can have an independent planning inspectorate for Wales, separate to that for England, and we will be taking those two proposals forward when we look at our planning law. Also, the Counsel General has said that the first consolidation measures that we would look at in Wales are likely to be in the planning field.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I support the comments made by Lynne Neagle? It is important that we strengthen the voice of the local community within the planning regime. What’s disappointing, of course, is that Plaid Cymru did table amendments to the planning Bill in this very place in 2013 to do exactly that, but that was rejected by the Labour Government, and they voted against those amendments, as they did, by the way, when we tabled amendments to the same Bill calling for an independent planning inspectorate for Wales. Just last week, I welcomed your written statement that the Welsh Government had carried out a u-turn on that issue and now supported the Plaid Cymru policy, having been calling for that over many years.Will you carry out another u-turn, therefore, and support what we were calling for in 2013, namely to give the right to communities to appeal planning applications, which then, as we would all wish to see, would give a far stronger voice to our communities within that system?

Julie James AC: Well, I'm pleased the Member is pleased about the announcement—if that's not too many affirmatives—and welcomes the recent announcement that we're looking into the feasibility of separating the Planning Inspectorate for Wales. And we're doing that for a number of reasons, which he'll be familiar with, but not least that the position is changing rapidly in terms of the divergence of law as it's applied. I'm committed to looking at all aspects of the planning process to see whether we can improve the voice of the community, particularly in the development control process, so in the specific application process. I'm personally not convinced of the need for a third-party or further appeal, but I do think that there are strengthening measures that can be taken, particularly in terms of site inspections and so on, to allow the voice of the community to be heard. I think the current process can seem very arcane from the outside. So, we are looking to see what other amendments to the development control process we can make, and we will very shortly be going out to consultation on a national development framework to put the overarching plan in place as well. So, I'm very hopeful that we will see a full development of the planning process in Wales with all of the strategic levels of the plan in place, and with the voice of the citizen heard at the planning stage for all of those, but I'm not yet convinced that a third-party appeal ought to be part of that process.

New Homes

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to increase the number of new homes being built? OAQ53832

Julie James AC: Increasing the number of homes being built, particularly for social rent, is a fundamental priority for this Government. We are taking action, considering new ways of doing things following the review of affordable housing supply, and making record levels of investment in the home building industry.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister.Steve Morgan, the founder of Redrow, said recently that the best way to combat the housing crisis is to speed up planning permission to enable more houses to be built. He went on to say that the rules and directives have choked the system, meaning fewer houses are being built, which, in turn, makes it difficult for first-time buyers to get on the housing ladder. Does the Minister agree that the planning process for new housing is too slow and has a lot of red tape in it? Minister, what action are you taking to remove the barriers delaying the delivery of new affordable homes in Wales, please?

Julie James AC: I partly agree with the point that the Member is making, but I have to say I don't agree with it when we're talking about the large house builders. So, I think that there is a case to make sure that we simplify the planning process, perhaps by rather more site-specific planning approaches for SME builders across Wales, and our stalled sites programme, for example, is looking to do exactly that to bring those smaller sites into play. However, I must say I disagree with, I think, the Member's proposition that the large house builders need assistance with planning. My view, actually, is that we need to strengthen our planning rules around size, type and demand for those kinds of developments, so that we have sustainable communities being built with the right kinds of infrastructure alongside the houses, and not just urban sprawl, which can occur where you remove planning consent regimes. So, I think I'm partly agreeing with the Member, but not entirely.

Mike Hedges AC: We know that only twice since the first world war have houses been built in the numbers necessary to meet demand. Once was in 1930 when there was very little control over development; I think that was what Mohammad Asghar was asking for earlier. And the second time was in the 1950s and 1960s when we had the large-scale building of council housing, and not only large-scale building of council housing but the necessary infrastructure to go with it. I wish to stress the importance of large-scale council house building to meet housing need; I believe it's the only way we actually are going to be able to meet the needs of housing, because it's not in the best interest of private developers to build sufficient because that would depress prices, and their aim is to maximise profit. So, they wish to increase prices as much as they possibly can. That's how Redrow made just under £400 million profit last year. What is the Government doing to enable this to occur?

Julie James AC: I agree with Mike Hedges; I think we're on the same page entirely. Traditionally, local authorities were indeed the prime providers of social housing across the UK with, of course, the massive house building programme that came in the post-war period. And those houses are still very popular homes today for some of the most vulnerable residents in our communities. But the building programmes were curtailed by financial restraints imposed by the UK Government on Welsh and other local authorities, and that has largely meant that large-scale council housing has been severely limited for a generation; in fact, since Margaret Thatcher introduced the right to buy legislation back in the late 1980s.
So, we do recognise the important role councils have in building new homes for local people, and I'm very enthused that we are potentially on the cusp of a new golden age for social housing in Wales. The Member, Mike Hedges, is completely right that the biggest increase in the scale and pace of social housing is expected to come from our local authorities, now they're able to build once again. The borrowing cap has finally been lifted by the UK Government, who've seen the light it seems, and there is an opportunity to turn council house building ambitions once more into results.
I've just had the affordable housing supply review published, and I'll be responding to those recommendations shortly. That review specifically considers what support local authorities will need to help them build again at pace and scale. We are welcoming of both the review and the lifting of the cap. We want to work very fast now to see whether we can get a revolution in social housing once again in Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Minister, I recently had the pleasure of visiting Rhondda Housing Association's Lle Ysgol development in Hirwaun that was built by a local small and medium-sized enterprise house builder, WDL Homes Ltd. And this brownfield development used a social housing grant to develop 12 homes, but also a commercial unit, which is, essentially, a village shop. How is the Welsh Government engaging with social landlords to encourage the development of retail units like this within their builds, which provide income for the landlord, but more importantly are a real asset to the local community, when we know that so many of our communities have suffered or are concerned about the potential for the loss of their village shops?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely; it's a lovely project, actually. The Rhondda Housing Association, as she said, and the scheme at Lle Ysgol shows the benefits of partnership working in improving local communities. And as I said, we are very concerned to build communities, not just housing estates, and it's very important that the right infrastructure, including shops and other facilities, is there. The scheme, as you know, has regenerated a vacant site for that community. It has 12 homes, an adapted wheelchair bungalow and a new co-operative retail unit. We provided the social housing grant and housing finance grant, totalling about £1.1 million, towards the development of the homes there, and we encourage registered social landlords and councils across Wales to look at developing a community rather than a set of houses, for exactly the reasons that she outlined.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Do you think it's acceptable for rough-sleepers to have their only shelter, i.e. their tent, taken from them and their few belongings thrown into a van and taken elsewhere?

Julie James AC: No, of course I don't think it's acceptable to do that. I think she's probably referring to the clearances that Cardiff council have seen recently. She and I became involved in a social media chain on that, which I have to say didn't always show social media to its best advantage, certainly in terms of some of the trolling I had as a result of that.
I have met with Cardiff council on several occasions subsequent to that, and, actually, also with Cardiff prison, to see what we can do to get the pathways better for people coming out of prison. In those instance, I'm assured by Cardiff council that the homeless engagement team have been out to meet with all of those people on at least two, if not more, occasions.

Leanne Wood AC: Minister, I'm stunned that you're not prepared to condemn this practice. We've seen earlier this week that Juha Kaakinen, one of those people involved in the Helsinki Housing First scheme, has accused the Welsh Government of a lack of vision and a lack of focus in terms of ending homelessness. It's over a year since your Government said it was reviewing priority need, and that's despite every organisation working in the sector, and your own Government's White Paper from 2012 saying that you needed to abolish priority need. It's almost a year since Crisis published the most detailed plan to end homelessness that is available, with recommendations for all Governments, but we haven't seen any commitment from the Welsh Government in implementing those recommendations, despite the fact that you would save money from doing so. When are we going to see real action on tackling homelessness and the implementation of that plan?

Julie James AC: Well, I just don't think it's true to say that we've seen no commitment at all. We have a task and finish group, chaired by Crisis itself, looking at our Housing First pilots. It is the policy of this Government that we roll out Housing First. We have to roll out Housing First in a way that means that we give the right lifeline to people, with the right support around them, in the right way. It's impossible to just replicate the Finnish system. And on the gentleman in question, who featured on a programme on the BBC on Monday, which I'm sure she saw, as did I—I have had no contact with that gentleman, and I'd welcome such contact, but he did not have the policy context for Wales right. One of the issues driving homelessness in Wales is the universal credit system, over which I, unfortunately, have no control. So, we have a system in which we have been praised the world over for our preventative programme in maintaining people in housing. We are continuing to do that. We have managed to hold the tide at 65 per cent of homelessness prevented in Wales. We're working very hard on the rest of it, and, of course, Housing First is our preferred option. You cannot just turn the ship of state around in two weeks and replicate an entire system from Finland. So, we have to make sure that our pilots work, that they reach the most vulnerable, and that we do it properly, so that we get a system that's sustainable and makes homelessness rare, brief and non-recurring, which is obviously the aim of all of us.

Leanne Wood AC: Two weeks? Minister, time and time again, we see your Government delaying and dragging its heels on even basic social justice issues, whether that's homelessness, air pollution or banning unfair letting agent fees. We only see action several years after the issue comes to your attention—endless task and finish groups, which don't end up finishing anything, reviews that tell us what we already know, and finding 'balances' that have to be struck between the rights of vulnerable individuals and large organisations, which don't like the fact that rough-sleepers are ruining their retail experience. Is this what twenty-first century socialism is all about?

Julie James AC: Well, Leanne, I'mreally sorry to see you descend into that kind of hyperbole, because that is not at all where we are and you well know it. I’ll be sure to pass on your thoughts on the task and finish group to the hardworking experts who are helping us with that policy. I’m sure they’ll be really helped by that kind of attitude.
Our attitude is entirely different to that. We want to roll out the best solution for people, as fast as possible, so that that solution is efficient and effective in dealing with their problems. This is not about money; this is about social justice and making sure that people have the unique solution to their problem that they richly deserve—not some one-size-fits-all solution that we can just slap on to the system and say, ‘There we are; we’ve done it.’That’s not what we’re about. We’re about making sure that each individual receives the social justice that they deserve and a system that supports them in maintaining their home once we get them into it, and supports their mental health, substance misuse, loneliness, post-traumatic stress disorder—all the myriad of problems that people experience when they experience homelessness.
Getting them into the house isn't the problem—sustaining them there and making sure that they have all of the services necessary to sustain that tenancy into the future, including the right packages of support, financially—benefits and so on—is essential. I’m not going to be bounced into doing something fast, when what we want to do is do it properly.

Conservatives' spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. My questions will focus on your role as Welsh Government lead on policy and relations with the armed forces and veterans in Wales.
In February, I hosted an event in the Assembly, celebrating the launch of the first national Welsh Veterans Awards, celebrating and rewarding armed forces veterans or ex-forces personnel that have made the transition to civilian life and have gone above and beyond and excelled in their relevant fields and will act as role models for future service leaders. The award teams were looking for people who, even during the most difficult periods, have excelled in business, fitness, sport and the wider community. They e-mailed me last week to say they'd just released their shortlist of finalists for the awards at the Village Hotel Club, Swansea, on 26 June, sponsored by Flintshire-based TASC Holdings Ltd and in support of ABF The Soldiers' Charity. What engagement has, or will the Welsh Government have of this positive initiative?

Julie James AC: I'm not sure I know that much about that specific initiative, but we’ve had good, positive initiatives from right across our contacts with the armed forces. The First Minister and I met with the brigadier for Wales very recently to discuss our continued relationship with the armed forces here in Wales and what we can do to mutually assist each other to get the best out of that relationship.
We have a long, proud tradition of supplying people into the armed forces. I’m very pleased to say that I was recently at a parade of the Welsh guards through Swansea, which I was very proud to attend. So, I’m afraid I don’t know the specifics of what he just set out. I’d be very glad to know more about it. It sounds great and I’m very happy to have more involvement in that, if he wants to supply the details to me.

Mark Isherwood AC: Great. As I say, they want to inspire our future service leavers that great things can happen.
In February, the UK Defence Secretary announced that service leavers and their families will now be able to access military accommodation for up to a year after leaving, giving them more time to look for permanent accommodation as they transition back to civilian life, where housing is clearly key to armed forces veterans and their families.
We know that, in Wales, First Choice Housing Association and AlabaréWales Homes for Veterans have led on housing for ex-forces personnel and their families, but how do you respond to concern that the Welsh Government’s housing referral pathway for veterans doesn’t address the concerns of how housing officers can provide the necessary support to manage the complex cases of rehomed veterans with better integration of housing, health and care services?

Julie James AC: We have a pathway specifically for people coming out of the armed forces. I'm very keen to make sure that that works and to have better involvement with armed forces personnel in the year leading up to their leaving the armed forces. So, I'd very much welcome better involvement in that specific process for my officials. So, what we want to haveis a seamless pathway so that we can hand people on to the right agencies in the area. We're very keen to make sure that we maintain local connections so people can go back to any community that they feel they have a local connection with, or indeed if they've made a life as part of being in the armed forces quarters somewhere else, that they're able to maintain a connection with family and friends. My understanding is that people transition best out of the armed forces when they are transitioning into a community happy to receive them and in which they have a lot of connections. So, I'm very happy to work with the Member if he wants to put me in touch with anyone who's got concerns in that area to make sure the pathway is correct.
Just on that, I'm reminded by the Deputy Minister that she's launching the Welsh Government's covenant annual report tomorrow, which has had a lot of input from the armed forces expert group. So, we're very delighted to be part of that as well.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, I hope your response means that you will now actually address this within the pathway with your officials.
Given your previous response, you may have heard of Project 360°—a partnership between Age Cymru, the veterans charity Woody's Lodge, and Age Alliance Wales—providing a welcoming space for armed service veterans, recent leavers and reservists, funded by the UK Chancellor's aged veterans fund, supporting older veterans across Wales.
I recently received correspondence from Age Cymru regarding a Conwy carer talking about the extra challenges she faces caring for her veteran husband with vascular dementia. She said that while he visits social groups for veterans, such as Woody's Lodge in Colwyn Bay, where he feels comfortable enough to chat with fellow visitors about their time in the service, they've also attended non-veteran support groups, which don't meet his needs. Although he enjoyed the exercise classes, he didn't want to chat to anyone there that he felt he had nothing in common with. He said, 'I would love to see more veteran-based activities as they offer such person-focused support.' And Project 360°suspects there may thousands of people like this in Wales, with full-time carers striving to meet the needs of their loved ones with chronic conditions and the added complication of being a veteran who struggles to interact with civvy street. How do you propose to address that concern as you look ahead with your colleagues in related departments?

Julie James AC: So, this is something the Deputy Minister's been taking forward. She's reminded me, once more, that she's launching the report at Woody's Lodge to see first-hand what can be done as part of making sure that veterans do receive the sorts of services that will allow them to have the kind of experiences that Mark Isherwood has just set out in his answer. I'm very happy to get the Deputy Minister to write to the Member with any details of any other projects that she's been looking at recently,FootnoteLink and if he wants to supply to me the individual details of the constituent that he mentions, I'd be more than happy to look into that as well.

Information further to Plenary

Question 3—but David Rowlands is not in the Chamber to ask his question No. 3. So, question 4—Paul Davies.

Question 3 [OAQ53868] not asked.

The Welsh Government's Rural Housing Policies

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on whether the Welsh Government's rural housing policies are fit for purpose? OAQ53844

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government continues to make funding available across all parts of Wales to support our housing objectives. In addition, we recognise that there are some different challenges in rural areas, which is why we have continued our long-standing commitment to funding rural housing enablers.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. Now, the Minister will be aware of concerns in Pembrokeshire regarding the Welsh Government planning policy around One Planet developments, as she's received correspondence from me and, indeed, constituents on this particular matter. Some of my constituents, and indeed Pembrokeshire County Council, have expressed concerns on a number of fronts, but they predominantly relate to the monitoring of the business plans and the pressure this is putting on local planning authorities to ensure that buildings are actually developed in an appropriate way. Would the Minister agree with me that, in light of the immense burden on local planning authorities, and indeed concerns from my constituents, it is time to review the One Planet development policy?

Julie James AC: Well, as he I'm sure knows, the One Planet development guidance is set out in 'Technical Advice Note (Wales) 6: Planning for Sustainable Rural Communities' and the One Planet development practice guide—that's surprisingly difficult to say: One Planet development practice guide. The planning applications are determined in accordance with the approved adopted development plan for the area, unless material considerations indicate otherwise, and obviously the planning system itself isn't designed to stop people making planning applications; it's designed to deal with them once they've been made. 'Planning Policy Wales' encourages local planning authorities and applicants to discuss proposals through the pre-application discussion prior to the formal submission of the planning application, and, as he knows, as I think he set out in his question, there are strict planning criteria applying to OPDs, and planning applicants must provide robust evidence in the form of that management plan, including the business and improvement plan, the ecological footprint analysis, carbon analysis, biodiversity and landscape assessment, community impact assessment and transport and travel assessments.
What I would say is that, if Pembrokeshire is having a spike of these or is struggling with particular expertise, then I'm more than happy to work with Pembrokeshire to ensure they have the expertise to be able to deal with it, and I'll happily make contact with the chief executive there to ensure that they feel that they do have the right skill set to be able to manage that. I understand the Member's concern here, but, of course, we do want to encourage passive, eco-friendly houses and innovative development across Wales, but I take the point he's making, and I'm more than happy to contact the local authority to ensure they have the skill set that they need.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Llyr Gruffydd AC: A shortage of affordable housing is a particular problem in rural areas, but where there are affordable homes built—and I can show you examples in my own region in north Wales—even those, although they are built with the best of intentions, remain vacant for a number of reasons, including, of course, the need for a deposit, which is too great for local people to afford very often. So, as one practical solution in providing assistance to rural communities in this context, may I ask the Minister whether she'd be willing to consider creating a particular capital fund for rural areas in order to assist local people, particularly young people, to afford to buy or rent homes in those rural areas?

Julie James AC: Yes, it's certainly an interesting point. I've just received—in fact, I was holding it in my hand—the Help to Buy Wales evaluation report, and one of the things we are looking at is what we will replace that scheme with or whether we renew it and what we do with the renewals. One of the things I'm very interested in doing is seeing what we can do to bring empty properties back into use and to encourage development outside of the conurbation areas to support the needs of local people. We're also working very hard with the registered social landlord providers and councils, depending on which is the housing authority in your area, to make sure that they're bringing forward the social housing plans necessary to enable local people to stay in their local communities. I'm very keen to work with local authorities and RSLs in this regard. We are particularly looking to have development suitable for local people to stay in the communities they want to live and work in and make sure that we build those communities as sustainable communities inside the community envelope.
So, I'm very happy to say that I'm happy to look at anything in that regard. I have the report, and you can see I was just starting to read through the meat of the report to see what's being recommended there. I've had meetings already with several local authorities in north Wales around the need to get social housing and affordable housing in its wider sense into those committees as well. So, I'm very happy to look at it, and I'd be happy to have the Member involved in that as we take it forward.

The Independent Review Into Housing

Michelle Brown AC: 5. What discussions has the Minister had with local authorities following the Welsh Government's publication of the independent review into housing? OAQ53863

Julie James AC: The independent review panel for affordable housing supply published their report on 1 May. I'm actually attending the Welsh Local Government Association’s housing cabinet meeting tomorrow, where the panel’s report will be the first topic for discussion. I'm engaging across the housing sector as I consider my response to the recommendations.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Recent figures have shown that some families are spending three years in temporary accommodation, so the average time to wait in some areas is months and not days. People are waiting a long time for proper accommodation, and I'm sure you empathise with those people. Under the Housing (Wales) Act 2014, local authorities have a duty to find accommodation for people who are, or are at risk of being, homeless, but there's no limit on how long that should take. What more can you do to reduce the time families are in temporary accommodation, and should the housing Act be amended to include a time limit on how long an authority can take to find a family a much needed home?

Julie James AC: Dealing with the last point first, wouldn't it be lovely if that were an easy solution? But, of course, it isn't, because, if you put a time limit on it and there isn't a permanent home available, what is the local authority to do? We don't want people moved away from their communities in pursuit of something that would have, it seems to me, quite a lot of unintended consequences. The only actual way to deal with problem that the Member outlines, which is a real one, is to increase housing supply. The Member's heard me talking at great length today already about increasing that housing supply, using all of the levers in our control, but, more specifically, to get scale and pace into the building of social housingonce more, which is the only permanent solution to that problem.
Mike Hedges suggested that there were some issues for private developers bringing housing forward, but what's really interesting is that if you look historically at the pattern of house building, more private house building has taken place in the years where the most social housing was built than in other eras as the market is forced to deal with the competition from the social house building. So, it's a really interesting counterintuitive spike, which I've been most interested to see, as it forces house builders to consider that theirs isn't the only game in town. So, we're really keen to get the market to move in that way, both by building the social housing and by getting developers to bring their plots into use.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Obviously, there's quite a difference in rural housing and the supply of rural housing, which very often falls foul of some of the sustainability goals, such as bus services, for example, that regrettably have been withdrawn over recent years, and we can have a debate and discussion about that. But, very often when people put forward applications for new housing in rural areas, they fall down on the sustainability test because very often it's a car that's required to access services and such. That's just by the very nature. Do you accept that argument, Minister, and do you think that there is cause to look at some of the rules and regulations because of the unique circumstances that the rural environment presents to get more rural development so that more housing stock can be made available?

Julie James AC: So, it's a complex picture. I mean, he's right to say that sustainability has to be one of the issues. What we don't want to have—and I take the point he's making entirely—but what we don't want is to build houses, put people in them and then find, actually, they're suffering from serious fuel poverty or other things because their transport costs are so high, and so on. So, it's a rounded picture that needs to be taken, and, as I said in response to Llyr, one of the things we need to look at is the variety of housing that's being enabled in rural communities, because it's not always just private housing that's required.
I live, as he will know, in a small village on Gower in my friend Rebecca Evans's constituency. That used to have a small amount of social housing, which was mostly occupied by the children of the people living in the village, but it's all been sold. So, we need more of that so that the children who grew up in those villages can access housing that they can readily utilise to stay in their communities. So, it's a mixed picture. So, I think we do need to look at some of the rules and regulations around this, but there are good reasons for the sustainability arguments, not just to stop the housebuilding, but to prevent the people in them falling into unintended areas of fuel poverty, for example, and other issues.

Affordable Housing

Russell George AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of affordable housing in mid Wales? OAQ53836

Julie James AC: I detect a theme developing in today's questions, Llywydd.
Yes, of course. The provision of affordable housing in mid Wales is a priority, as is building more affordable homes across all parts of Wales. I recognise that supply is not currently meeting demand. Stock-retaining local authorities, such as Powys, and housing associations have a key role to play in bringing stock forward.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister. There was certainly no co-ordination in terms of the theme. But, certainly, housing association tenants have contacted me in numbers in recent months in regard to what they see as the unaffordable levels of their rent going forward. The rent rises are within Welsh Government guidelines. That's an issue that I've written to you about, and, as I understand it, it allows for a minimum rise of inflation plus 1.5 per cent, and £2 per week. What more are you doing to ensure that rental rates are not so expensive for those who are often on low incomes, and what consideration have you given to introducing a value-for-money assessment, such as what occurs in England to give tenants the confidence that any rental increase is justified?

Julie James AC: Yes, we're currently looking at the rent policy for Wales, so I will be announcing a new rent policy for Wales once we've completed that review. The Member rightly says there are a range of factors in play. One is social justice for the people paying the rent. The other is the fact that the landlords who we wish to build the much-needed social houses use the rent, obviously, as a way to fund the borrowing that they need to get the capital to build more houses. So, it's a nice balance between the two. The review is looking at all aspects of rent policy, including the social justice arrangements. The Member will know that I won't be able to let this go without saying that he also could play his part in looking to get his Government to change some of the regulations in universal credit that are driving some of the issues that he outlined in his question.

Fair Work

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government supporting fair work in Wales? OAQ53854

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government already promotes fair work in areas such as procurement and social care. We have also welcomed the Fair Work Commission’s recent report and will be working in social partnership to consider taking forward its recommendations.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, responding to your statement here last week—

Julie James AC: Can I interrupt you, Mark Isherwood?I'm terribly sorry. Llywydd, my fault entirely—the Deputy Minister was going to take this question, so can I apologise profusely and allow her to do this?

You're far too keen, Minister. The Deputy Minister to respond. Carry on with your supplementary.

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay. Responding to your colleague the Minister's statement here last week on the Fair Work Commission report, I also refer to the UK Government's 'Good Work Plan'. This follows recommendations made by Matthew Taylor, the chief executive of the royal society of arts, the mission of which is to enrich society through ideas and actions, so, clearly, not a partisan report. The plan outlines action to implement his recommendations in review of employment practices and modern working to ensure employee rights are protected and upgraded as we leave the EU and that the UK labour market remains successful and competitive into the future. What consideration, therefore, will the Welsh Government give to the 'Good Work Plan', alongside its consideration of the consultation outcome on its own Fair Work Commission report?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for allowing me to answer the question and for asking the question? The Member raised some very interesting points there in terms of Matthew Taylor, previously of Institute for Public Policy Research background. Clearly, we're proud of the record we have in Wales in terms of how we've worked with social partnership and the things that's been able to deliver before in terms of a living wage in the NHS to the agricultural advisory panel. But now we want to look at what's on the table and build on the previous work in a way that works for workers and works for Wales, and looking at those 48 recommendations of the Fair Work Commission and outlining how we can drive forward fair work in Wales. I know that my colleague the Minister announced that we accepted the six of the commission's priority recommendations, and what we'll need to do now is to—. Our task will be to consider carefully each of the wider recommendations and determine the best way forward in terms of implementing them.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, for many years young people have been discriminated against in employment. Would you welcome the commitment by the Labour Party now to end that discrimination against 16 to 18-year-olds so they will be paid the rate for the job not a rate attributable to their age, and end this long-standing injustice young people have had to face in the workplace?

Hannah Blythyn AC: In a word, 'yes'. When the minimum wage first came in, it was groundbreaking legislation but it was meant to be a minimum. We see now, and we've heard recently—some students came in to talk to us—how 16 to 18-year-olds also have caring responsibilities, and may also need to pay rent. So, also, we need to make sure, on the other side of the coin, actually—. Some more unscrupulous employers may use that to potentially not employ perhaps mature students and only employ younger students because they can pay them less money. The Member will be familiar probably with the Fair Work Commission recommendation that believes workers should be fairly rewarded the rates of pay of the Welsh living wage and should be provided the minimum wage for all working hours and all workers.

Financial Inclusion

Dawn Bowden AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government plans to improve financial inclusion in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OAQ53850

Hannah Blythyn AC: The financial inclusion progress report and forward look, published in December 2018, provides an overview of some of the key activities since publication of the strategy and delivery plan in 2016. These include our ongoing support for advice services, credit unions and the discretionary assistance fund.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Minister, and I'm very aware of the good work that is done by organisations like the citizens advice bureau in my constituency. Yet, there are Valleys communities that are facing a steady withdrawal of many vital services, and many of us will have seen that. Working with my colleague Gerald Jones MP, we've campaigned to save some of the commercial banking services in towns like Rhymney, and we're currently looking to retain access to a network of free cashpoints, cash withdrawal machines, and also supporting the work of local credit unions. In what further ways can the Welsh Government deliver support to ensure financial inclusion in these communities?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I start by also reflecting the Member's comments and recognising the work the citizens advice bureau provides in providing advice and promoting financial inclusion and that support for people in communities across the country, and also recognising the work both you and your colleague Gerald Jones have done in trying to prevent bank closures and best mitigate the impact? I know it's something that probably all Members in this Chamber will be familiar with, and familiar with having to campaign in that way as well. And, unfortunately, whilst we don't have the levers at our disposal in terms of regulation in terms of preventing banks from doing that, there is actually action we can take within Wales to make sure that financial inclusion doesn't suffer as a consequence of that.
The Member mentions about the—[Inaudible.]—access to ATMs through Link. We will continue to liaise with Link—as Welsh Government—the cash machine network to help ensure that there is adequate provision of free-to-use cash machines maintained locally, whilst focusing on our work with credit unions. There are 19 credit union providers we're supporting between April last year and March 2020, and Merthyr Tydfil is one of these as well. The Member is also familiar with the work being led by my colleague the Minister for Economy and Transport on developing a community bank in Wales. Banking professionals are currently working with the Development Bank of Wales, who support this work, ensuring that the creation of a community bank integrates with existing financial institutions, including the development bank and, of course, credit unions. Hopefully, this will go some way to supporting financially inclusive communities.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, like many other communities in Wales, has suffered bank closures in recent years, such as the Barclays bank branch in Aberfan and Lloyds bank in Rhymney. This has made the availability of cash machines even more important to enable people to access their cash. However, a report in the magazine Which? found that free-to-use cash machines were disappearing at a rapid rate, with nearly 1,700 machines across the United Kingdom starting to charge for withdrawals in the first three months of this year. Minister, do you agree that charging for cash withdrawals will have an adverse effect on financial inclusion and will you make representations to those companies that provide cash machines, stressing the importance of free transactions to communities such as Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney?

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Welsh Government continues to work with Link, the cash machine network, to help ensure that there is adequate provision of free-to-use cash machines maintained locally and a regular network across communities across Wales. As I said to the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, it is that Member over there's Government that could take action to regulate banks to prevent communities from suffering in this way as well.

Question 9 [OAQ53847] is withdrawn. Question 10, Leanne Wood.

Local Government Funding

Leanne Wood AC: 10. Will the Minister make a statement on funding for local government? OAQ53853

Julie James AC: Certainly. Local government services are funded through the revenue support grant, non-domestic rates, council tax, specific grants from Welsh and UK Governments and authorities' own income, including fees and charges. In 2019-20, the local government settlement provides £4.2 billion of general funding, with a further £900 million in specific grants.

Leanne Wood AC: Recently, there have been pockets of anti-social behaviour incidents in my constituency. Ystradfechan cricket field in Treorchy is the scene of large gatherings of youths, which have escalated in seriousness in recent times. Drug paraphernalia and smashed alcohol bottles are frequent sights at this beautiful park in the aftermath of these gatherings. Furthermore, the threat of large-scale disturbance involving young people from the Rhondda, the Cynon Valley and Pontypridd was, thankfully, averted due to proactive policing in Pontypridd town centre over the last couple of weeks.
Local authorities have a vital role to play in tackling anti-social behaviour at source with their responsibility for youth services. Now, in England, a link has been established between areas with the biggest cut to youth services and the sharpest increase in knife crime. Now, I value youth services. I personally benefited from them, as did my friends. In Rhondda Cynon Taf, youth services have been hollowed out as a result of cuts, because the Labour administration simply hasn't prioritised youth services. And the result is that young people are left with very little to do and now we're seeing the fruits of that. So, what value does your Government place on youth services? And, if you agree with me that youth services are vital, will that be reflected in the next local government settlement, and would you also consider issuing guidance to local authority leaders on this matter?

Julie James AC: Youth services are not actually in my portfolio, but I'm familiar with—

Leanne Wood AC: Youth services.

Julie James AC: Youth services. But I'm familiar with the issues the Member raises. I too regret the decimation of the youth services across Wales as austerity bitesacross all local authorities. The First Minister, in his programme for government, has announced a welcome boost to youth services across Wales, because we recognise the preventative effect that youth services can have, which the Member ably outlined in her question, and I agree with her entirely, I too benefited from youth services as I grew up. We do have a youth engagement programme still in place in all local authorities in Wales in order to help those most vulnerable in our society, but she's right that a more general youth service also assists across the piece with all kinds of issues around being a youngster before you're old enough to go to establishments that are licensed and so on and what on earth do you do between the ages of 12 and 18. So, I'm very familiar with the issues that she raises.
The First Minister has been very keen to emphasise that we want to put back the heart into youth services in Wales, and we are having discussions with local authorities and the youth service itself and our youth workers across Wales about what the best way to do that is, and I'm sure that—. I think it's the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, is it—I'm not sure, actually, but I'll find out—who is looking at that. I did have that in my portfolio one portfolio ago, so I'm very keen to find that out. It is a constructive conversation we're having with local authorities, who also see that those preventative services prevent the acute and of the chain happening in the first place.

Finally, question 11—Hefin David.

Leasehold Reform

Hefin David AC: 11. Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of the Welsh Government's ministerial task-and-finish group on leasehold reform? OAQ53869

Julie James AC: Yes, the independent task and finish group is on schedule to deliver its report and make recommendations to me this summer. It has prioritised a number of issues that will complement the work of the Law Commission and the unadopted roads taskforce.

Hefin David AC: I recently met with the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, who are feeding into the task and finish group, together with residents of Cwm Calon estate in Penallta, Ystrad Mynach, in Caerphilly constituency. There are still a number of unresolved issues relating to the escalating estate management charges that residents are expected to pay, and I know that that is a specific area of responsibility for the task and finish group. Residents in Cwm Calon—and there are many other housing estates across Wales with these problems; Members across the Chamber will know that they have the same issues in their constituencies—want the Welsh Government to take action. Can, Minister, you tell me when precisely will the task and finish group report and can you also give the guarantee that estate management charges will be dealt with?

Julie James AC: I can't tell him precisely when, because I don't have that information in front of me, but I know it's before the end of the summer term of the Assembly. If I have more specific information, then I will certainly let the Member know. It is a specific task of that task and finish group to look at those specific issues, and, actually, my colleague Ken Skates has also had a group looking at unadopted roads, and we've combined the two in order to make a joint statement on the overall effect, because it's not just a transport issue, as you rightly say; this is an estate management issue, it's an issue for housing developments coming forward, it's an issue about the way that we manage residential developments and so on. So, the taskforce is indeed looking at that, as we are well aware of the concerns of his residents and residents across Wales who find themselves with management fees when they thought they'd bought a freehold property and so on. So, I assure him it's very much front and centre of what we're looking at.
We are looking at a wider piece on leasehold reform as well. My predecessor in this portfolio, Rebecca Evans, established a specific sub-group to look at this and also secured an agreement from all of the major Help to Buy builders that they would not use Help to Buy to put leasehold properties on the market, and that's been very effective. But there are these other bits of the estate that we need to tie up in an appropriate fashion to ensure that people don't have a whole system of fees that they did not anticipate and that they have no control over going forward, and actually to ensure that the local authority has the ability to adopt and maintain those roads in the right fashion with the right kind of street marking and facilities and so on, and we don't have abrupt changes of a surface and all that sort of stuff as you go into the estate.

Thank you, Minister.

3. Topical Questions

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions. The first topical question is from David Rees.

Tata Steel and Thyssenkrupp

David Rees AC: 1. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the announcement that the joint venture between Tata Steel Ltd and Thyssenkrupp AG is likely not to be approved by the European Commission and thus any further process on the joint venture will be suspended? 310

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and assure him that I've spoken with Tata Steel and with trade union representatives, along with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy? It's too early at this stage to say what this might mean for Tata Steel in Wales, but of course, Llywydd, this Welsh Government stands ready to secure a sustainable future for iron and steel production in Wales that protects employment and steel communities.

David Rees AC: Can I thank the Minister for that answer and the commitment he's given to supporting the steel industry here in Wales? Now, many will remember that, in 2016, the beginning of it, we saw the threat of closures of Port Talbot works. Following the decision by Tata then not to close it, in the commitment to seek a joint venture or merger with ThyssenKrupp, indicating it would be that offer that would give steel making a strong future, the trade unions accepted that—maybe reluctantly, but they accepted it—and that was reinforced this week by the Tata Steel European Works Council in the 10 May statement, saying that they supported that path. Now, that's gone, and I agree with your statement yesterday, and I thank you for that statement. It's a worrying time; there's no question about that. Grey clouds are once again on the horizon over Port Talbot, with the fear that they're moving in our direction. I think it's time to have cool heads, as you pointed out. It's not time yet—take time; cool heads. We must look and set out our own visions for ensuring that Wales has a sustainable steel sector.
I also agree that UK Government has a critical role to play in this, and you highlighted those points, whether it's a steel sector deal they need to get on with, or whether it's the attack on high energy costs, which we've been calling for for many years so that we can strengthen the financial position of companies in steel. That's one agenda. But I want to ask: what are the intentions of the Welsh Government to support the sector? You've done a fantastic job to date. I can't dispute the support this Government has given, both in this Assembly and the previous Assembly, to the steel industry, but we now need to see where we're going. I haven't seen a specific Welsh steel strategy, so can I ask whether you will be publishing a specific Welsh steel strategy for the future?
Can I also say that steel is being supported by increasing income? You know, we talk about costs—lowering costs—but we can also talk about increasing income. One of the ways of increasing income is improving investment through CAPL galvanising lines in Port Talbot, for example, so the higher end products become more expensive and you get more money in as a consequence. So, the question I'm asking is: are you looking at future investment into the sector? Are you going to look at greater use of research and development? Are you going to be innovative and creative in your approach to supporting environmental projects? Because we've often argued that it's state-aid rules, but there are ways around state-aid rules so that you can help companies—environment and R&D being two of those ways. Now, both of those, actually, will help not just the industry but actually help constituents in my town on a wider basis as well. So, again, will you look at that and can you tell us what your plans are for that type of approach?
Can you also—? We've had people call for a summit from the First Minister. Well, to be honest, steelworkers and their families in my constituency don't want more talk. They want positive action that will remove the uncertainty they are now facing. That's definitely returned. We know it's there. We are fearful that it's there. We want a commitment from the Welsh Government of that continued support, and I want to ensure that, actually, perhaps that can be reinforced by somebody going to Mumbai to talk to the Tata board in India to reinforce the commitment this Welsh Government gives to the steel industry here in Wales.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dai Rees for his question and, as always, the passion with which he speaks for Welsh steel and iron facilities across the country? I'm going to touch on a number of really important points that he has raised, including investment by Welsh Government and the role of UK Government, but, first, can I say that, in terms of any grey clouds on the horizon, we are in a different place to that which we occupied in 2016? We are not back to the same position as in 2016, and that's largely as a consequence of the investment that Welsh Government immediately offered to Tata, some of which Tata has drawn down and much of which Tata has matched with investment, to ensure that primarily the Port Talbot operation is more efficient and sustainable. In turn, I think it's absolutely essential that no rushed decisions are made, and this was something that I pressed upon Tor Farquhar when I spoke with him on Friday. It was a message that clearly came from the European Works Council as well, on Friday. It's my intention to travel to the Netherlands to speak with executives to ensure the message that no rushed decisions are made and also that the steel footprint of Europe is secured and not dismantled, as far as Tata is concerned.
I'm going to move on to touch on the role of UK Government. Dai Rees rightly raised the important need of a sector deal for steel. This is a matter that I raised with Greg Clark when I spoke with him on Monday. Clearly, a sector deal is needed that can lead to significant investment in the sector. It requires UK Government funding, and it also requires funding from the sector itself. I am hopeful that we can, working together, ensure that a sector deal is delivered. But, that won't be enough in its own right. There are clear and immediate challenges concerning energy prices that need to be addressed by the UK Government. While I welcome the announcement in the 2018 budget of an industrial energy transformation fund, that in itself will not deal with the volatility within the energy markets, nor will it deal with the disproportionately high prices that energy-intensive companies in the UK have to shoulder. Therefore, the UK Government must do more on this vitally important matter.
In terms of the support that we have given and will continue to give, I can assure the Member that we stand ready to help in any and every way, just as we said that we would back in 2016. We have offered £21 million to date to Tata, covering a range of functions and modernisation programmes, including skills training and, importantly, research in development, which the Member pointed to. The strategy, going forward, for steel is encompassed within the economic action plan. We wish to support the industries of tomorrow by ensuring that they are decarbonised, that there is heavier investment in research and development, and a stronger focus on export opportunities. Through the prism of the economic contract and the calls to action, we will ensure that those industries of tomorrow are modernised and competitive. But to do so with maximum effect, we need to ensure that businesses themselves are willing to invest. That's why my message to Tata will clearly be: continue the investment—not just in Port Talbot, where it is vitally needed, but across the entire estate in Wales and, indeed, in England.

Suzy Davies AC: Can I just say thank you for reassuring us that we're not back in the same position that we were in in 2016? I think the investment in the blast furnace and, actually, the company's interest in producing more of its own energy are a good sign that that's actually the case. I just had a couple of questions, because my colleague Russell has some as well. I suppose I'd like to repeat some of the questions that I asked when the merger or the joint venture was looking as if it was very probable. One of the things that I asked at the time then was: what's likely to be happening with R&D? I think you might have answered that in response to David Rees. At the time—I think it was in response to an emergency question or a topical question from Helen Mary—you said that you would be circulating a note of the conditionality of the terms that have been offered to Tata already. At the time, we were asking, 'Well, will they apply to a merged venture?' But, I don't think we've had that note yet, and I think that it would be useful, not least because it will stop us asking this same question over and over.
On the principle that I'm asking the same questions that I would have asked if there had been a merger, you did say at the time that you were hoping that the employment pact would be extended to 2026 with the joint venture. If that doesn't happen, would you still be seeking that extension from Tata as it is—on the same terms, probably? You also mentioned the competitiveness of Welsh steel—that what we're looking for is something that's efficient and productive. I suppose that what I'm asking is, is there a plan B here? Say this merger doesn't go ahead, I think that what I'm seeking is that there has been some sort of reassurance about what would happen if it doesn't go ahead, in the sense of, are there any escrow agreements drawn up about an extension to an employability pact? Was there anything else that was done in draft, if you like, so that, should the merger not go ahead, we weren't immediately just thrown back into a position where we were all asking, 'What next?' Now, I appreciate that it is a bit too early to be asking that question, but I would have liked to be certain that there was a back-up plan. I suppose that's what I'm asking. I think that that's all I want to ask at this moment. I will be listening to what other Members say as well—particularly, I suspect that Trostre might come up in other people's questions as well.

Ken Skates AC: I was keen to understand what the alternative plan might be as well when I spoke withTor Farquhar on Friday, and he assured me that the endgame, the ultimate goal, remains the same, and will remain the same, and that is to ensure that sufficient investment is made, particularly in Port Talbot, to give Welsh steel and iron making a sustainable and strong future, and of course we have a role in that. We've already played a part in that; UK Government must play a part as well, and that is still the plan. Therefore a plan B is not absolutely necessary at this stage because Tata are still in a position to be pursuing the goal of sustainable production.
In terms of the conditionality that's attached to our support, I'm sorry that you've not received a note. I assure you that the details that we are able to provide to you we provide to you in a timely fashion, but the conditionality relating to employment will continue, regardless of what happens with the merger, and I think it's absolutely right that we do apply tough conditions. And it's right that, whilst Tata's been able to draw down a significant package to date, the remaining funding that we have put on the table is met with a willingness to commit to employ dedicated, loyal and skilled staff for a good number of years.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'd like to pick up on your comments that you will be heading to the Netherlands to speak to Tata executives there and to just ask you what discussions you have had to date with Tata operations outside the UK, not just on a European level, but worldwide, too. There is an article on Bloomberg in which Tata's chief finance officer has been quoted saying that Tata will be shifting its focus to the Indian steel market, and that the European operation must not draw resources away from the expansion in India, even going so far as to say that assets would need to be sold off to make business more profitable, putting the future of Welsh steel in even further doubt. I certainly would categorise that as serious clouds on the horizon.
Now, the collapse of the merger has meant that of course the European operation will in a way be more reliant on the Indian operation's resources, meaning that, in the near future, Tata could or will have to look at deinvesting in Europe based on the priorities set out by the chief financial officer. So I'd like your comments on that. Tata has also stated that they will also be looking at partnerships with non-European companies. Can I ask what discussions you have had with regard to that possibility?

Ken Skates AC: On partnerships with non-European countries, we've asked about any alternatives to the proposed joint venture and merger. It's a commercial matter for Tata, of course, but we are keen to understand what alternatives there might be, and what interest there might be. That's one of the reasons why I'm keen to go to the Netherlands and speak with senior executives. The shifting focus away from Europe and towards India means that the steel family within the European Community will act more distinctively, potentially, in the future, and that is why I believe that engagement at a European level is absolutely right. We have good relations already with Ratan Tata and with senior executives in India. We stand ready to go to Mumbai if necessary. For the time being the advice that we've received from Tata is to ensure that we thoroughly engage at a European level. That's what we are doing, and that's what I'll continue to do.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Member, Dai Rees, for tabling this very important question? I also welcome the Minister's commitment towards the steel industry—continued commitment towards the steel industry. We simply can't afford a situation where we lose jobs in the steel industry like we did at Shotton in the 1980s. It's been a roller-coaster ride of uncertainty for workers and their families, so I do welcome again the Minister's commitment to ensure that they have the support they need right across Wales.
Minister, can I urge you to continue the work you're doing to ensure that we don't lose investment here, and maybe sit down with the Members who have steel in their constituencies post your engagement visit to the Netherlands? Also, just to focus on a few points that were mentioned earlier in this question, the UK Government does need to do more to address the underlying problems facing the UK steel industry, so would the Minister agree with me that it is the sky-high energy costs that are leaving steel makers within the UK and the European markets—? They're competing with the European market, leaving the UK steel industry with one hand tied behind their backs.
Finally, Minister, would you also agree that procurement is also important? We've got projects within the UK, like the Royal Navy's new fleet solid ships, which gives us an opportunity here in Wales, here in the UK, to use our steel. Overall, Minister, we do need to do more. The uncertainty for the families of the steelworkers needs to end, and we all need to work closer together to ensure that steel making is a success within Wales, as it can be, as it has been in the past, and as it needs to be for the future.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his contribution and for his questions? I can assure the Member that I'm maintaining a keen interest in all of Tata's sites across Wales, and tomorrow morning, I will be visiting Tata Shotton to meet with local union representatives and, of course, executives at the plant. I think it may be a timely moment for the cross-party steel group to reconvene here in the Assembly to consider the various matters that are being discussed this afternoon, and I would absolutely agree with the Member that sky-high energy costs are the major challenge, not just to Tata's operations, but to the whole of the steel community across the United Kingdom, and, indeed, to a huge number of energy-intensive firms. It's therefore absolutely vital that the UK acts on volatile and often extraordinarily high energy costs that leave businesses in Britain at a competitive disadvantage.
Jack Sargeant also makes the important point concerning procurement and, of course, there are some major infrastructure projects at a UK and, indeed, at a Welsh level that we would wish to see Welsh steel used in. For our part here in Wales, they include road-building projects, they include, of course, the metro as well. And at a UK level, projects such as HS2 should, in my view, utilise steel made here in Wales.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, these are worrying times for the steel industry right across Wales, and, obviously, your concern is for all Tata plants right across the country, as you've stated. For me, obviously, Llanwern and the Orb works are particularly concerning because they provide many high-quality, well-paid jobs locally, and other jobs in the supply chain and so on depend upon them. The Orb works is up for sale at the moment, which puts it in a particular position. I just would like your assurance, Minister, that those plants will receive your full consideration in your work with Tata, with the trade unions, with UK Government, with local politicians and all others with a stake in these matters. And if you are meeting at plants in Wales, Minister, to discuss these matters, I'd be very grateful if you could also meet in my constituency.

Ken Skates AC: I'd be pleased to meet with the Member at the plant that he represents. I raised queries with Tata on Friday concerning all of the sites, and I was told that the Orb works sale continues. It's a different situation for Trostre—the disposal of that particular site is off the table if the merger doesn't go ahead. But I will keep Members updated regarding each of the sites whenever I receive information from my officials and from Tata, and, whenever possible, I will also endeavour to visit steel facilities in anyone's constituency.

Russell George AC: The Presiding Officer has indicated that I must be short, and there are a number of questions around energy that have been asked this afternoon, but in terms of how the Welsh Government can help and support the industry in terms of business rates and help on business rates, I'd be grateful for any update in that regard. And also, have you any indication about how this announcement may affect the commercial investment to secure a long-term future for the Trostre site as well?

Ken Skates AC: In terms of energy, of course, the UK Government, as has been said, have a huge role to play, but also I know that Members are keen for us to respond to the recently declared climate emergency. I think it's worth saying that, based on the recently published report from the Committee on Climate Change, it's very clear that it is in our interest to ensure that we do not lose steel making, even given the fact that it is a heavy carbon contributor. Why is that? Well, it's because the Committee on Climate Change clearly states that scenarios for reducing UK industrial emissions are dependent on retaining our industrial base and decarbonising it, rather than losing it to another country where it might not be decarbonsied. And, so, it's absolutely vital that we play our part, all of us, in ensuring that the heavier contributing industries in our country contribute less in the future, through investment.
In terms of business rates, this is, of course, a matter that falls within the remit of my friend and colleague the finance Minister, and I'm sure that she'll be willing and enthusiastic to respond to questions concerning this matter. The most important thing for Tata, and the Member rightly raises commercial interest and commercial viability, the most important thing for Tata is that Tata Steel Europe maintains a focus on delivering the plan that was always in place, which is to ensure that sufficient investment is secured in order to modernise the facilities and to put them on a stable, long-term footing.

Thank you, Minister. The second topical question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

HMRC's Error regarding Welsh Rates of Income Tax

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Further to the written statement yesterday, will the Minister provide an update on HMRC's error regarding Welsh Rates of Income Tax? 311

Rebecca Evans AC: I issued a written statement yesterday on this matter to ensure that Members were aware of the situation. HMRC identifies Welsh taxpayers and issues tax codes to employers who are responsible for applying their employees' tax codes. Some employers did not apply the correct codes. HMRC is supporting employers to fix this.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for that response. I'm pleased that we are having an opportunity to ask a few further questions on this. The shame here is that we are in that process now of introducing these historic new taxes—

Rebecca Evans AC: Just a moment, please.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: No problem at all.
What’s a shame here is that we are seeing the introduction of these historic taxes for the first time, and we need to ensure that that process works as smoothly as possible, because we will need to generate confidence among people that this process is going to work. We saw from the experience in Scotland, which introduced its taxes before us, that problems had arisen with coding, and one of the things that we asked for as the Finance Committee was an assurance that lessons had been learned from that. And the assurance given to us was that those lessons had been learned and that we should be fine. I have some copies here of correspondence between the committee Chair and HMRC. The Chair asked for an assurance and HMRC provided those assurances:

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 'We are confident that we have a robust approach'

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: —and so on. But this kind of thing is perhaps going to undermine people’s confidence, although it’s fair to ask who is to blame: is it the employers for failing to use the correct code, or is it the system, including HMRC, for failing to realise that at the time that the incorrect codes were being used?
So, I wanted to ask for further assurances on particular actions that the Welsh Government will take now, specifically in order to restore the confidence of Welsh taxpayers in this process. And, what further work will the Welsh Government do with HMRC in order to ensure that there is what you might call an early warning system in place where the incorrect codes are used?
Now, as it happens, we're not talking about large financial sums here. I think people may have overpaid or underpaid somewhere between £2 and £10. So, they're not huge amounts of money, but confidence is the issue that we're talking about here, and I would ask for a few words of assurance on the steps taken by the Government from here on in.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much for the question and the opportunity to provide some further clarity on this issue. Rhun ap Iorwerth is right: this was a historic thing that we did on 6 April in terms of setting our own tax rates, and it is important that people are able to have full confidence in the system that underpins that. I think it might be helpful if I just set out what happened, to bring us to where we are.
So, HMRC assigns the correct tax codes to all UK taxpayers through the annual coding exercise. HMRC then issues a P9 form to employers, which confirms the tax codes to assign to each of their employees. It’s then the responsibility of the employer to correctly apply this tax code using whatever software or process that they have adopted. And some payroll providers, in this case, incorrectly applied the S code to Welsh taxpayers. We're awaiting further detail on how this happened, but it does appear that, in some cases, payroll providers haven't updated their software to enable the C code to be applied.
That’s particularly disappointing because HMRC did do extensive work with employers and payroll software providers throughout the preparations for the introduction of Welsh rates of income tax, using their established communication channels and also bespoke presentations, as well as providing technical specifications and test data to ensure that employers and payroll software providers had all the information that they needed. So, there’s no evidence at this stage that HMRC made any errors in allocating the codes to individuals. As I say, it’s disappointing that this error occurred, but beyond that, I think that we can say with some confidence that everything else went smoothly, so I think that certainly is a positive.
In terms of the actions: one of the things that we set out early on, before WRIT came into place, was that there would be the system tests. One of those will be undertaken in June and that's the earliest date that the relevant data will be available for all employers because of the deadlines for employers to submit their payroll information to HMRC. So, once HMRC has performed these checks, we'll be able to identify any inconsistencies and then identify those employers who will need to update their employees' tax position.
Rhun ap Iorwerth is right to say that we're not talking about large financial sums. So, typically, where taxpayers have underpaid tax, or been overpaid, they would have been underpaid by no more than £2 or where they'd overpaid, it would be by no more than £10. And in some cases, even though taxpayers had the incorrect code, they would have paid the correct amount of tax.
All errors will be resolved by HMRC, so there's no activity or no action required on the part of taxpayers, and obviously, I'm very keen to keep colleagues up to date in terms of any further developments and certainly once we have the results of the tests, which will be undertaken in June.

Mike Hedges AC: We know about the problems that exist, which Scotland had when it first had income tax devolved, and if this is the only problem that we have, then I think it should be solved fairly quickly. But when you see a problem occurring like this, there's a nervousness as to whether other problems might have occurred as well.
We know the bigger problems in Scotland were the failure to allocate Scottish taxpayers to Scotland and to accurately predict the income tax income and receipts that were going to come into Scotland. Is the Minister confident that everyone who should be a Welsh taxpayer, apart from those who have just been identified, are paying the correct Welsh rate of income tax, especially those who do live in Wales, but work in England?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much and this is something that we've explored in the Chamber before the introduction of the Welsh rates of income tax, so it's good to come back to it again. Welsh Government and HMRC undertook a large amount of work to ensure that we could identify everyone who is eligible to pay their taxes in Wales. We have no reason to suggest that we feel that there is an issue with that piece of work in terms of identifying those individuals who should be paying Welsh rates of income tax.

Thank you, Minister. The next topical question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015

Andrew RT Davies AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, in light of comments made today by Rhodri Williams QC describing the legislation as 'toothless'? 314

Jane Hutt AC: The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act contains binding legal obligations and is driving a positive change in how public bodies make and implement decisions that affect the people of Wales and our environment now and in the future.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that very broad response, Deputy Minister. It is a fact that a judgment does sit there now that has been handed down by the High Court, which calls the Act,
'deliberately vague, general and aspirational and which applies to a class rather than individuals.'
What is really important is that, in light of this judgment, do you as a Government now believe that the Act does need to be tightened up so that it does confer stronger rights to individuals and communities, given that that judgment sits there, or do you believe the judgment is correct and that you, as a Government, deliberately put an Act down that was vague and was general and was more aspirational?

Jane Hutt AC: The well-being of future generations Act is about improving the social, economic, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales, now and into the future. Of course, the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts, but the Act does provide for enhanced scrutiny, not just of the Welsh Government through the powers of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales—an independent commissioner—but also the examination duty on the Auditor General for Wales, and it's improving decision making, both in the short and longer term through the five ways of working. It's designed to support 44 public bodies in Wales to make decisions.
The well-being of future generations Act is well regarded, not just in Wales. I met with the third sector today keen to embrace those ways of working, keen to make it work. Worldwide, it is highly regarded as something where Wales is leading the way, and indeed it is an opportunity in terms of making real change. And if you look at the powers of the future generations commissioner, they're very clear. The commissioner's role is to act as a guardian for the interests of future generations in Wales and to support those public bodies.
Well, I do know that, in fact, Andrew R.T. Davies didn't actually vote for this piece of legislation in the final stages—

Andrew RT Davies AC: Because it was poorly crafted.

Jane Hutt AC: —but I think that the well-being of future generations Act is already standing up to the test, and I would very much like to actually organise a meeting with, not only the Member, but all Members, to update on the impact of the future generations commissioner's work and the well-being of future generations Act.

Neil McEvoy AC: The Welsh Government is spending millions of Welsh tax pounds on the well-being of future generations commission, run by a Labour insider. The High Court—the High Court—has now stated what many of us already knew: the well-being of future generations Act is 'deliberately vague'. A senior barrister in Wales has described the Act as both 'toothless' and 'virtually useless'. The well-being of future generations commission is nothing more than an expensive talking shop. A place where yet another Labour person can get yet another six-figure salary package.
Instead of spending millions on something said by an eminent QC to be 'virtually useless', why not fund front-line services, which will really make a difference to future generations? You can invest in sustainable infrastructure, you can invest in public transport, install electric charging points for cars, you could even put the money into the NHS to save lives. Do you agree with the High Court? It seems not, actually, but I'll ask you the question: do you agree with the High Court that your legislation is deliberately vague and will you change it?

Jane Hutt AC: This Assembly passed this pioneering, world-breaking well-being of future generations Act, and also it has already had a powerful impact in terms of examples in the way that the well-being of future generations Act is driving a renewed focus on how we can improve and engage with the diverse population of Wales. I'll give you some examples, really important examples. For example, in terms of the strong leadership that's needed to engage with our communities, those affected by decisions, affected by policy: making the Valleys regional park, for example, in terms of making that landscape and the heritage of the Valleys more accessible to people. They used the principles of the ways of working and the well-being objectives in the Valleys taskforce to ensure that we looked at this using the examples of the well-being of future generations Act. Transport for Wales: ensuring that their decision-making process is focused on sustainability. I mentioned yesterday, in answer to questions, that our national planning policy, which I know the Member always raises in this Chamber, has been re-framed using the Act, and it puts placemaking at the heart of the planning system, ensuring that people's well-being is considered as part of the planning process. In fact, people are looking to the well-being of future generations Act to do what the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales aims to do: advise, encourage and promote, carry out reviews, make recommendations, report, and also ensure that we do deliver for our future generations. I think that is the key purpose of the well-being of future generations Act.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: It's interesting that you describe the Act as 'well regarded', because, usually, Government Ministers tell us it's 'world-leading' and 'groundbreaking' legislation. I remind you regularly that it'll only be as much if it leads to groundbreaking and world-leading change. I have to say that this doesn't augur well, but I suppose the jury's still out on that. We clearly tried to strengthen the Bill when it was a Bill but we were voted down, but we didn't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, because it's not necessarily about transforming the legal landscape. For me, the main thrust of the Act was to effect that wider cultural change, which was about putting sustainable development as the central organising principle, if you remember that term, of the whole public sector in Wales. Now, I'm waiting to see the evidence that I'd like to see in terms of that being achieved still, although I think it's work in process. I suppose the M4 decision around the black route to me will be a litmus test. If you fail that test, then the Act won't be worth the paper it's written on, as far as I'm concerned.
The important thing here is, of course—I'd like to ask whether the Government is committed to undertaking post-implementation review of this legislation so that we can be confident that it actually does what it said on the tin. And if it does show up deficiencies, and we've already heard one, then would you as Government be committed, then, to look again at the Bill and to maybe introduce further legislation to correct it, so that it can be the strong legislation that we all want it to be?

Jane Hutt AC: I'm very grateful for the Member's comments on this, and I do fully remember his engagement and his party's engagement in these discussions. You're quite right, this is about the cultural change and the leadership that is required to ensure that we do deliver on our sustainable development principle. In fact, if you look in the Act, it says quite clearly:
'any reference to a public body doing something “in accordance with the sustainable development principle” means that the body must act in a manner which seeks to ensure that the needs of the present are met without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.'
That's now in statute. It was important to build on our original principles in terms of sustainable development in the Government of Wales legislation. So, yes, it's early days, clearly, and we do need to assess the impact of the future generations commissioner's role and, indeed, the legislation.
I have to say, when I was a member of the Finance Committee, we more than once had the future generations commissioner helping us, coming along and actually being extremely helpful in terms of looking at our budget-making process, for example. She has had a powerful influence, for example, on moving towards a more preventative approach to our budgets and looking in terms of health in terms of how we can address the long-term needs and not just crisis-manage the health service—crucial in terms of prudent healthcare, and, indeed, crucial in terms of the aims of the cross-party parliamentary review in terms of the well-being of future generations Act.
There are 44 public bodies that are subject to the well-being of future generations Act, but others—the police, for example—are not devolved. They have embraced the core principles of the well-being of future generations Act, because they see it as a way in which they can improve the way they deliver services. I know that the commissioner herself in a recent article said
'this is the biggest cultural change programme that Wales has ever seen.'
We have to make it as such. We do need to invest in how we go about changing the culture so people will start thinking more about the long term. In Government, we so often think about the short term, the crisis—it's about the long term. Others do look across the world to see how we are delivering on this new piece of legislation. But we will report—she has a duty to report anyway in terms of the future generations report—assessing each step of the way how this is being delivered and learning the lessons.

Mick Antoniw AC: Minister, I've heard a lot of huffing and puffing on this and I think it's perhaps time for a little bit of perspective on this. This is a judgment that's based purely on the papers submitted for a preliminary application for a judicial review. It's not a binding judgment, it does not set any particular precedent, but there are one or two particular points in it that are quite important.
It raised the issue of justiciability, but what the judge very clearly says is this: he said, 'Well if it is justiciable, they have complied with the Act in any event.' That is, they did apply the well-being objectives and have satisfied them. That, in itself, confirms that the Act has actually worked in this case in terms of the culture and the processes that were actually gone through. I was involved in the early stages of this legislation and there were many arguments on this legislation as to how such a difficult area could be drafted, but this has been commended at United Nations level. Now, the real test of the effect it's having and how it's working is when we have an opportunity to debate the annual report of the sustainability commissioner, and you can look at the overall picture.
I actually commend the legislation, because I think it is important legislation, and it's a little bit disappointing that this rather preliminary judgment that would probably have been appealed if it wasn't for the finding that the Act has been complied with in any event—. And it may be at a future stage that the justiciability issue needs to be looked at, but I don't think that is any grounds for undermining and some of the poisonous and bilious comments that have been made about the individual involved, the sustainability commissioner, which I think is very regrettable in this case.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm very grateful to Mick Antoniw, the former Counsel General and esteemed lawyer, and I'm glad it was you as the Member who responded and put the record straight in terms of the impact of this legal judgment. As I said, it's an interpretation of the law and interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts. And, again, I don't wish to return to this, but Members can read that judgment that was made and see for themselves how that judgment was made and the justification. But I think it's very important also to say that we must ensure that we see what the impact of this legislation is.
And let's just look at some of those duties of the commissioner. The Act gives the commissioner the power to conduct a review into how public bodies are safeguarding the ability of future generations to meet their needs and make recommendations. The commissioner can intervene, review and, indeed, as she has done, make comments on policy matters. She's done that formally in terms of planning policy, the economic contract, Transport for Wales, the Valleys regional park and also in terms of housing—she herself has engaged in the development of the affordable housing supply review panel, looking at ways in which they can consider the important issues in terms of future housing needs for future generations. But I am grateful to the Member for making those points. Let's focus on this legislation, on the pioneering role that the first independent future generations commissioner is undertaking, and I'm very pleased that we have got the opportunity today to put the record straight on these issues.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, Deputy Minister, you say that it's up to the courts to interpret this legislation, but it's also incumbent on this legislature to have made its legislative intention clear. And one of the reasons our party were not particularly keen on this Bill, as it was at the time, is that it was never clear to us how it could be enforced and, even now, those duties to which you've been referring in this exchange today—it's not clear to me quite how action can be taken against any of those public bodies should they fail in those duties, apart from judicial review, which in my view is absolutely not the easiest route to access justice for any of our constituents, actually.
It's not the first time I've disagreed with, shall we say, a legal opinion. The judge in this case—. I don't know the specifics—obviously, I know about the closure, but I don't know the detail that was presented to support the judicial review application, so I don't know what she actually saw, but I can say categorically that, in the case of Craigcefnparc school and Felindre school in my own region, when we sought advice from the commissioner, she gave us a very, very comprehensive set of guidance and advice on how public bodies should not just observe those duties to which you refer, but how to demonstrate that they had complied with those duties, and that certainly wasn't the case with the two schools that I mentioned, which as far as I'm concerned—personal view—would probably still be open to judicial review proceedings should the local community wish to do that.
So, when we're talking about the strength of this Act, I appreciate what you've been saying about culture change, but there's a way of actually strengthening it as a legal instrument as well, and perhaps I can invite you to look at this—it's a chunky piece of paper we've had from the commissioner with this advice—to see whether it would be worth introducing secondary legislation to make some of this advice statutory, so that all public bodies—the 44 to whom you referred—will know precisely what they have to do in order to demonstrate that they've complied with these duties, and not rely on, shall we say, communities who will struggle to get money together for judicial review to push it all back into their court, on the basis that they're probably too poor to take action against poor decisions.

Jane Hutt AC: I welcome the fact that Suzy Davies has commented on the advice that was given by the future generations commissioner—advice and guidance in terms of her powers, and the opportunities particularly to engage with those affected by those decisions about those particular school closures. I think we have to recognise that whatever the situation is, this legislation was never set up to bypass existing regulations in terms of change—difficult decisions such as school reorganisation. The school organisation code, which obviously the people and the communities you were involved with would have to have responded to, as indeed in the case that's set out as a result of this question, sets a very high standard of consultation, and it is a public consultation. The Act was never designed to bypass consultation processes such as those laid down in that particular code, which are difficult decisions. So, this Act was never set up in order to bypass or even set the stage for those kinds of legal challenges.
Now, what is clear is that we have to see how the impact of the legislation, what the outcomes of that are in terms of—. I think Llyr Gruffydd made an important point—does this make a difference to our sustainable development principle in terms of social, environmental and cultural well-being making a difference? Will it make a difference to the long-term decision making of not just this Welsh Government, but all those public bodies who are willingly engaging in the new ways of working, looking at the seven well-being goals, and seeing that this actually provides them with a backdrop for a new way of working to look towards our future generations, as well as the well-being of Wales today?

Jack Sargeant AC: I don't agree with the comments from the QC. I don't believe the legislation is toothless. I do believe and agree with Mick Antoniw. This legislation has made us a world leader in thinking differently, so would the Minister agree with me that we do need to keep flying the flag for this piece of legislation, because it's why countries right now, as you've rightly said, Deputy Minister, are looking to Wales and are interested in Wales and this piece of legislation, and they want to follow Wales's lead? So, we do need to keep flying the flag.
Deputy Minister, I was very proud recently to launch a report alongside the Civil Engineering Contractors Association and also be at the launch of a report from Coleg Cambria in my own constituency. They don't need to follow this piece of legislation, but what they have done is to take the piece of legislation, looked at how it works, realise the benefits and implemented their own plans. And I do believe they are doing some incredibly positive things because of this legislation. So, would you agree with me, Minister, that this is another example of the legislation making a difference right here on our doorstep in Wales?
To finish, again, I do not believe this is a piece of toothless legislation. I think drafting a world-first piece of legislation that changes the way we work, that protects our planet, that looks at the way we monitor and maintain our budgets for the future is something that we should be proud of, and I think it's something that our future generations will be proud of moving forward.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for flying the flag today with a concrete example of how this legislation is being used by Coleg Cambria and how—. These are early days, and we need these examples of case studies of how the public sector is embracing this. I said I'd met with the third sector today. They are embracing it; they see that, particularly in terms of the five ways of working, involvement and engagement is crucial. We know that we haven't done enough of that in terms of getting people's views. So, it is also very important to recognise that people outside of Wales are looking at this legislation, and certainly they will be expecting us, who passed this legislation through this National Assembly, to stand up for it. So, there may be a private Member's Bill being considered by Lord Bird of The Big Issue, a Member in Westminster. The New Zealand Government sending a delegation to Cardiff to learn more about the innovative Welsh model, Sophie Howe being at the World Government Summit talking about this, and, indeed, Eluned Morgan, Minister for International Affairs and the Welsh Language, in the UN in New York speaking about the well-being of future generations—isn't the Assembly proud of that? But, clearly, we have got to demonstrate the impact of it on the ground here in Wales in our public bodies and in our communities.

Finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Deputy Minister, I would counsel very gently that the Government doesn't simply defend the piece of legislation and not consider criticisms that are made of it. The nature of legislation is that it should be reviewed, and the Government has in the past, certainly in my day, accepted reviews of legislation. Post-legislative scrutiny has been a positive part of the legislative process. So, I would hope that the Government would take a more open approach to this. Members will be aware of my own concerns about a piece of legislation—you know, you don't make Wales bilingual in 50 years by declaring that you're going to make Wales bilingual in 50 years; you do it by legislating in different ways to do it, and the Government, of course, has dropped the legislation that might have achieved that. So, I would counsel caution to the Government on this matter. Many of us find declaratory statements given the weight of law to be little more than pious hopes, unless it's actually backed up by real action. Certainly, my concern would be that the Government would review the workings of this piece of legislation that the relevant committee—I think my colleague from Pontypridd mentioned that the sustainability committee could do that, and certainly I think it would be good practice were it to do so. But simply passing legislation and defending it, I think, is a very poor way of operating. We need to look hard: does this achieve the ambitions set for it? Does it achieve the visions set for it? Is it the legislation today that we hoped it would have been when we voted for it? Is it achieving the objectives set for it? And, were we to do that, I'm less confident than the Minister that we would give ourselves 10 out of 10. We might get over the 50 per cent, but, certainly, we need to think much harder about the impact of legislation, and certainly my experience in Government is that this piece of legislation is worshipped more in the theory than the practice.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Alun Davies for that question. In fact, I also thank Andrew R.T. Davies for the question, because I think it was important that I could come here and answer the question, because it should be a matter of public debate. This is about scrutiny, after all, of our legislation, legislation that we passed, and I completely agree with Alun Davies and with his experience in terms of legislation that we have to consider it in terms of scrutiny and the outcomes. I think I've made that very clear this afternoon in terms of reporting examples of where it's working, as Jack Sargeant has identified. It is early days, and, yes, we can proclaim this as a pioneering piece of legislation, I believe—certainly others are, including the United Nations—but we now need to take stock of the considerable debate this afternoon that has arisen as a result of this. Certainly, I would be very pleased—in fact, I think it would be helpful if committees were able to do this in terms of scrutiny and reporting, but also that we set up a seminar or a meeting where we can discuss the legislation further to explain how public bodies are delivering on it.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item, therefore, is the 90-second statement, and that statement comes from Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Coeliac UK is marking its annual awareness week this week. Coeliac disease is a seriouslifelong autoimmune condition caused by a reaction to gluten in wheat, barley and rye. People diagnosed with the condition must stay gluten-free for the rest of their lives if they are to avoid very serious complications, yet, whilst one in 100 people are estimated to have coeliac disease, of these, only 30 per cent are currently diagnosed, meaning there are nearly 22,000 people in Wales with undiagnosed coeliac disease. The average time it takes for someone to get a diagnosis is 13 years from the onset of symptoms, by which time they may already be suffering with added complications caused by the disease. With only 3 per cent of adults aware that the symptoms of IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, are also common symptoms of coeliac disease, Coeliac UK is calling for greater awareness of the similarity of symptoms and urges anyone with IBS to ask their GP for a coeliac disease blood test if they have not already had one. This blood test, carried out in primary care, is simple and inexpensive, yet thousands of people are not getting the necessary testing. As chair of the cross-party group on coeliac, I'd invite Members to join me in raising awareness of this serious condition, and if you or someone you know has symptoms such as ongoing bloating, diarrhoea or constipation and has been given a diagnosis of IBS but not been tested for coeliac disease, think, 'Is it coeliac disease?' Diolch yn fawr.

5. Statement by the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee: Maintaining Confidence in the Standards Procedure

The next item is the statement by the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee on maintaining confidence in the standards procedure. I call on the Chair to make her statement—Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The work of the Standards of Conduct Committee is integral to ensuring that we, as elected representatives in the National Assembly for Wales, maintain the confidence and trust of those who put their faith in us to represent them.
The system of an independent commissioner was introduced in 2011. The statutory post of commissioner for standards held important powers to carry out rigorous investigations of complaints against Assembly Members before reporting to the Standards of Conduct Committee. The creation of this post was significant. It aimed to give the people of Wales increased confidence in their elected representatives by enshrining in law the powers and independence of the Assembly’s commissioner for standards.
We are now in a different climate to 2011. As Members are aware, there's been extensive coverage about inappropriate behaviour and sexual harassment throughout society. The MeToo hashtag, a step that has allowed people across the globe to speak out and voice their concerns, has demonstrated that the need for change is undeniable. Politics is certainly no exception. A key factor in achieving this change is ensuring people have confidence to confidentially come forward and raise concerns without a fear of this often sensitive information being shared. It's also incumbent on us to make sure that we're encouraging wider representation in the political system. This will only be possible if we have a culture that is truly inclusive and enabling.
It's therefore deeply disappointing that recently a number of complaints to the commissioner for standards have been released to the media prior to the process having been concluded. In the last two instances, this has happened before the committee had even begun its consideration into the complaint. The committee’s work is significantly impacted when a complaint or the contents of a commissioner's report appear in the public domain before we've considered the matter. It greatly undermines the system and results in the committee considering a report against a backdrop of external comments and speculation. This is not fair on complainants or those who are subject to a complaint.
We have great concerns that the publicity and media coverage resulting from such breaches of confidentiality may act as a disincentive to making a formal complaint, particularly if it's of a sensitive nature. This is troubling and contrary to the work being undertaken across the Assembly to ensure confidence in how concerns and inappropriate behaviour are dealt with.
As elected politicians, we have a responsibility to ensure that we set the highest standards as an example to wider society. It's imperative that every one of us takes responsibility in achieving this. I'd like to remind all Members that we must not disclose, communicate or discussany aspect of a complaint with the press or other media until the committee's report is published. This may include the discussion of any potential complaints before they've officially been made. Failure to adhere to this procedure is a breach of the code of conduct and will be treated as such.

Joyce Watson AC: I welcome this statement today from the Chair of the standards committee. The setting up of the independent standards commissioner of the Assembly was sadly needed, and, in the current climate, it'll probably be needed more than it was when it was initially set up. Investigations must be seen to be rigorous and conclusions that are then presented to the committee for due consideration have to remain confidential to allow them to carry out considered actions unimpeded by outside influences.
The two leaks to the media were, in my opinion, deliberate acts that served to undermine that particular process, and I agree with the statement today that that is deeply troubling, and that it's imperative that any AM, be they the complainant or the complained about, must expect to find themselves in breach of our code of conduct. My question is—to you as Chair—how can the Standards of Conduct Committee expect to be able to enforce that particular ruling.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Joyce, for your comments, and I really appreciate the opportunity to make this statement, again, as I said, today, Llywydd, and I want to assure all Members and the public that this hasn't gone unnoticed. We've been very concerned about it and we have taken action when we've needed to. We did have leak inquiries around this, around the two points that Joyce has said today, and, from that, we've—those leak inquiries were able to suggest a number of improvements to the security processes, which have now been implemented.
But, just to reiterate, it is so important that we are clear that any leak greatly undermines the system and results in the committee considering a report against a backdrop of external comments and speculation, and it's not fair on the complainants and it is not fair for those who are subject to the complaint.

I thank the Chair.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: Non-carbon-emission public vehicles Bill

The next item, therefore, is the debate on a Member’s legislative proposal, and today we’re focusing on the non-carbon emission public vehicles Bill, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7020 Rhun ap Iorwerth
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes a proposal for non-carbon-emission public vehicles bill.
2. Notes that the purpose of this bill will be:
a) to promote the use of electric vehicles or non-emission vehicles in Wales in order to help reduce carbon emissions; and
b) to place a duty on the Welsh Government and other public bodies to develop a strategy to move towards using electric vehicles or non-emission vehicles in the public fleet in Wales.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Well, a little over a week ago, this Senedd voted to declare a climate emergency—an important symbolic step. It was Plaid Cymru that had tabled the motion, and, shortly before that, the Government stated that they were willing to make that statement. It was a very important symbolic statement, and I look forward to discussing that with environmental campaigners in my old school, Ysgol David Hughes, tomorrow.
But, whilst the symbolism was significant, our willingness to take action will be the measure of our success in tackling that emergency. And, in the Chamber yesterday, we listened to a statement from the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport on active travel. The Welsh term is better than the English, 'teithio llesol', rather than active travel. 'Llesol' in Welsh means 'beneficial', and, through that legislation, what we’re doing is to ask people to make travel choices that are more beneficial to them—in terms of their health, yes, but we are also talking about benefiting the environment.
The Minister gave this statistic yesterday: 13 per cent of climate change emissions in Wales come from transport, and virtually all of those come from the private car with its petrol or diesel engines. Now, yesterday, we had a discussion on how to help people to choose active travel, either on a bike or walking. That’s one way of tackling emissions. More significant is encouraging people to use public transport, to get out of their cars and to choose mass transport options that are kinder to the environment. And I do agree 100 per cent with that. We must invest in creating networks and travel systems that are attractive, efficient, clean, that can drive that kind of change in the way we get from A to B. We can also discuss ways of preventing journeys from A to B, so that people can work at point A and live there, too, rather than having to travel to point B in the first place.
But, in the midst of all of this, the private vehicle will still be an important feature of our transport landscape for years to come. There will be changes. There will be more car sharing, hopefully; automation will take place, whereby vehicles can arrive without a driver. But, for some years to come, I’m sure we will have cars on our roads. And not just cars, of course; there'll be vans, goods lorries, heavy goods vehicles maintaining public services, and so on and so forth. Therefore, we have to make them cleaner. Outside the Senedd earlier today it was wonderful to welcome Audi, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan and Renault, who were demonstrating their latest electric vehicles. The technology is making progress very quickly, with wholly-electric vehicles being able to travel further—200 miles and more on one charge, and 300 for some. Charging can take place more quickly, but there are urgent steps that need to be taken in order to normalise low-emission vehicles.
Earlier today, I also published a report that drew on my visit to Scotland and outlined the lessons that we can learn from Scotland for the future of electric vehicles in Wales. I presented a copy to the Chair of the economy committee, Russell George, and I’m grateful to that committee for carrying out an inquiry in this area. I hope that my report will be of some use to the committee. But, perhaps, the main thing I learned from Scotland was that we need a clear focus, a particular strategy. We need determination to drive that strategy forward, to introduce far more charging points, to ensure that they work, to gather data on their usage, and so on and so forth, and also to provide further incentives in different sectors—taxis, for example—to think how we can combine the use of electric vehicles in our cities.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you for allowing me to speak. I have had an opportunity to look at the report that you’ve written. I think it’s an excellent report, and it shows the kind of ambition that we need. I will be supporting you this afternoon when it comes to the vote. Do you agree with me that what we need now is a strategy and a timeline and funding to ensure that we can achieve the kind of ambition that you describe in your report?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for those comments. It was good to see the Member for Blaenau Gwent in the event outside the Assembly earlier, and I do appreciate that support. Yes, certainly, we do need a clear strategy, and that’s one of the concerns I have: that we are falling behind.
But, for this Senedd as a legislature, in responding to the fact that we have made that statement on the climate emergency, we need to consider how we can use the tools that we have. One of the things that we can do as a legislature is to legislate. Last year, I made a legislative proposal on a planning Bill to put guidance in place for the infrastructure for charging systems in new developments, and I was very pleased to see the Welsh Government reflecting some of those priorities in their recent low-carbon plan. But what I have this time is a Bill for public vehicles that are non-carbon emission. The hope is to promote the use of electric vehicles or non-emission vehicles such as hydrogen by placing a duty on the Welsh Government and other public bodies, from councils to local authorities, to develop a strategy to move towards specifically using electric vehicles and non-emission vehicles in their own public fleets. And it’s important to say that there are signs of good practice emerging in several councils across Wales.
One thing I learned from Scotland, in Dundee specifically, is that you need a few determined individuals. In Dundee, it was those individuals that have driven innovation. We need to identify those determined, enthusiastic individuals in Wales. But, I do think that legislation can be a tool that we should use, and I am proposing that a boost should be given through legislation to ensure that every public body publishes a strategy as to how they are going to move in the right direction. NRW, as it happens, has carried out an assessment of its own situation and has come to the conclusion that it can change a little over half of its fleet—. They can't change all their vehicles at the moment, butif they changed about half of their fleet, they would save 413 tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions per year, and on top of that would save £136,000.
So, let’s make progress. Let’s vote for this motion today and support the idea of developing legislation—because we are a legislature—to push a strategy that we all agree with in principle, but where we consider what we can do specifically as elected Members in our national Senedd.

Russell George AC: Thank you for putting forward the legislative proposal this afternoon. Can I say that the Welsh Conservatives and myself fully support the legislative proposal put forward by Rhun ap Iorwerth this afternoon? I was also pleased to support the event that Rhun mentioned earlier today, where he launched his report talking about the Scottish experience, and indeed I was very grateful to him for supplying me and committee members with an advance copy of that report, because the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee is currently doing a piece of work on electric vehicle charging infrastructure. In that piece of work that we're doing, we've taken a slightly different approach to normal, in that we've taken evidence and, rather than publish our findings with recommendations and conclusions, we have published our report in draft with our emerging conclusions and recommendations to further consult, and that approach has seemed to have worked. There'll be another opportunity for me to talk to some of the emerging conclusions when we come to debate that in this Chamber.
But I would pick up on one point. One of the emerging themes, or certainly one of the responses that we received recently, was that Wales is a charging desert and that, currently, infrastructure is insufficient in coping with existing demand, let alone increased demand. I regret, actually, not using the screens we've got here today to show the Zap-Map, which, indeed, Government uses as well to obtain its own information of coverage and charging points across England and Wales, because if you saw that map, the story would speak for itself. England is quite well serviced, certainly in urban areas, but Wales—we've got a scattering in the north, a scattering in the south, with a big desert in the middle.
Now, the Government's announced £2 million of investment to improve charging points and charging point infrastructure, but we note that in Scotland the Government there has committed £14 million to support infrastructure and to support the low-carbon agenda, £8 million of which has been dedicated towards charging infrastructure from the UK Government's Plugged-in Places scheme. I think that we, or certainly the Welsh Government, should also be promoting private sector investment as well as public subsidy, particularly in rural areas as well, and in some cases, the Government might not even need to promote public funding, because that'll come itself through the normal channels. But what we do need to address is the infrastructure in rural Wales, and we don't need infrastructure in rural Wales just for those who live in rural Wales, but, of course, to get anywhere, if you're going to go from north to south, you're driving through rural Wales, so you do need infrastructure there to support the network.
I was also pleased, as well—very grateful to the Minister for allowing his official to come to a meeting on Monday in Newtown, where I got a Welsh Government official, Powys County Council and other stakeholders together to explore some of the issues and exchange information as well. The key issue that was driving through that meeting was the lack of charging infrastructure in rural Wales and making sure that any strategy that does come forward, as it will do, as the Minister has said it will come forward in 2020, will address some of those issues. I'm over time—I'm so sorry, I've not said as much as I would like to say—but I will have another opportunity when the committee comes to debate this report later in the year, no doubt.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for introducing this proposal for a Bill. I agree that we must find a cleaner way of getting from A to B, and I'll be supporting the motion. However, although many people dream of the day when we're all diesel and petrol free, and I would join them on that, we have to be careful about rushing ahead with the promotion of electric vehicles and seriously consider the realities of mass electrical car roll-out. So, in my contribution today, I'm just going to focus on electric vehicles. When it comes to the environment, we often talk about our responsibility for the sake of not just Wales but the rest of the world also, and we need to be mindful of that when promoting electric vehicles.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Michelle Brown AC: Electric vehicles rely on batteries. Batteries require cobalt, and the vast majority of that is sourced from the Congo—an area rife with conflict. Furthermore, children are exploited to work in the cobalt mines for slave wages, and much of the profits the companies make is used to fund civil war. The term 'blood batteries' has now entered the lexicon of those talking about development of electric vehicles, and we must ensure that we're no part of it. We have to make sure that in our scramble to find a different form of fuel for our cars we don't end up fuelling conflict, poverty and child labour—however many miles away it is from Wales. Tesla have reportedly said that they're looking to source cobalt from Cuba, but in the global scramble for this finite resource, once the ethical sources have been depleted, it will be sourced from less ethical sources. There will be no other choice. Therefore, where point 2(b) mentions a strategy to move towards using electrical vehicles, please can we ensure that a constant element of that strategy is to only use vehicles that are free of conflict materials or blood batteries?
But it's not just the ethical sourcing that concerns me. Some of the practicalities have to be sorted before we rush towards mass use of electrical vehicles. The biggest problem is obviously going to be the recharging. Where, at the moment, we can fill up quickly mid journey, there's not the infrastructure or technology that allows that to the same degree at the moment, and other speakers have alluded to that. Many petrol stations, even now, have a queue of cars waiting for the petrol pumps, and I appreciate that charging points don't have to be restricted to the petrol stations, but there will have to be some centralised charging points for people to use when they're actually en route. So, we've already got queues; how big are these recharging centres going to have to be if a recharge takes, say, 30 minutes as opposed to a five-minute pit stop to just fill up with petrol or diesel? What happens if a car runs out of charge before it can get to a recharging point? The driver can't exactly take a petrol can up the road to a filling station.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Michelle Brown AC: Yes, go on.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I think one of the developments that we'll see in years to come is that you'll be recharging as you go, with recharging miles of highway, so you don't have to stop at all.

Michelle Brown AC: Yes, fantastic, but you say it's one of the developments that is to come. What I'm saying is that going for a mass roll-out of electrical vehicles before the technology and the infrastructure has caught up isn't particularly the right way to go.
Okay. So, we can't actually say for sure that the more widespread electrical vehicle use is, the quicker the technology will catch up, and until a driver can do a long drive on a single charge that includes being stuck in a motorway jam for some hours in the winter, electric vehicles aren't going to take off. Don't get me wrong; I'm not against electric vehicles per se. All I'm saying is that there are some consequences that we need to think about. Okay—

Can you think about winding up? Sorry. It's three minutes per Member.

Michelle Brown AC: I'll get on with it, yes. I've just got another point.
Another concern is the silent nature of electrical cars. The ability to hear a vehicle coming is vital to keeping yourself safe on the road and around the road. What concerns me is that electric cars are so quiet that it causes a health and safety risk. So, I would like manufacturers to address that health and safety risk.
And then finally, I'd like to point out that only 50 per cent of pollution from cars comes from the engine and the exhaust. The rest of the pollution actually comes from the tires and the brake dust, so you know, as part of the strategy, we need to be building that into the strategy to look for ways that that pollution can be reduced. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates?

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond today, and I'd like to thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for putting forward this proposal. It comes at a particularly appropriate time, following our declaration of a climate emergency on 29 April. The Welsh Government is taking a lead in meeting the calls for action of people of all ages who are concerned about the very real impacts of climate change.
Back in March we launched 'A Low Carbon Wales', our first Government-wide statutory decarbonisation plan. It contains 100 proposals and actions, around half of which relate to transport. The plan includes policies to increase the proportion of vehicles that are electric and ultra-low emission, including a very bold ambition for zero-emission bus and taxi and private hire vehicles by 2028. We recognise the public sector's leadership role, so the plan also includes a proposal that all new cars and light goods vehicles in the public sector fleet are ultra-low emission by 2025 and, where possible, all heavy goods vehicles are ultra-low emission by 2030. Introducing low-carbon vehicles into the public sector fleet will not only contribute towards our aim of a carbon neutral public sector by 2030, but it will also increase visibility and normalise the use of ultra-low emission vehicles for our public sector staff, service users and, of course, the public.
With most of our public bodies already addressing this issue, there is little evidence that legislation is required to stimulate the development of strategies. Indeed, this morning I outlined the development of our vision and our strategy for electric vehicle charging across the country, when I attended the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. We're planning for publicly available charging infrastructure to meet the demand that will be created by the large-scale uptake of electric vehicles, but I expect the private sector and electric vehicle charging providers to deliver the vast majority of infrastructure. Our role is to assess where there are gaps in provision and to act, where necessary, to address market failure. Our strategy, to be consulted on alongside the Wales transport strategy, will utilise the same approach that we took in procuring the operator and development partner for the new rail franchise, where we use public property and public land to bring the market to invest in the installation of charging points on a concession basis. Our emerging strategy will ensure that a national standard charging network is delivered, mostly with private sector investment, but with the public's best interests at the heart of deployment.
In view of the policies and the proposals that we have in 'A Low Carbon Wales' and the imminent strategy for deploying an electric vehicle charging network across Wales, I do not feel that legislation is actually necessary at this present time. But, of course, I am willing to review this in the future. I would urge every Member to work with us on this. Delivering our ambitious decarbonisation targets will require significant leadership, change, collaboration with our partners, and the involvement of society as a whole. Working together and showing leadership individually as well as collectively on this matter, I am confident that we can deliver and make a real difference.

Thank you very much. Can I now call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to all the Members that have taken part, and thank you to the Minister for his response. I have just a few seconds to respond. I think that I've made all the points that I wanted to make in my opening speech, but I think that there is widespread support for principles. I think that Michelle Brown is right to raise questions. I think that I could, if I had plenty of time, address a number of the questions that she had. But this is part of the wider discussion that we are having in building people's confidence in the developing and the emerging technology.
This is a debate on noting this proposal. I hope that the Assembly will vote positively to note this proposal today. Of course, legislation needn't be the only answer, but we have to keep considering legislation as a possible tool. I welcome signs of movement towards having a strategy. For example, when the low-carbon plan talks of wanting to move to a public fleet by 2025 that is zero-emission, what I want to know is how. When are we going to do it? How are we going to do it? That's why we need to move, with urgency, towards having a strategy, Wales-wide, with ultra-low vehicle emissions as a very clear focus, because it is going to be a very prominent part of our transport future.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note that proposal. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Healthy School Meals

We now move on to item 7 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, healthy school meals, and I call on Jenny Rathbone to move the motion.

Motion NDM7002 Jenny Rathbone, Dai Lloyd, Joyce Watson
Supported by Darren Millar, David Rowlands, Mike Hedges, Russell George, Vikki Howells
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Believes that healthy, nourishing school meals can make an essential contribution to pupils’ wellbeing, attainment, and positive behaviour.
2. Notes that the Children’s Commissioner’s report A Charter for Change: Protecting Welsh Children from the Impact of Poverty provides worrying evidence that a significant number of pupils are not getting their entitlement set out in the healthy eating in maintained schools guidance.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) clarify whether the standards of school meals are the responsibility of school governors, local authorities or the Welsh Government and what action is being taken to ensure they are being monitored; and
b) outline what action is being taken to increase the amount of food for schools being procured locally as part of its emphasis on the foundational economy.

Motion moved.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Just over two years ago I visited Cornist Park School in Flintshire to look at the lunch provision. Why there? Because Flintshire was the only school caterer in Wales to have achieved the Soil Association's Food for Life certification. What did I observe? Every child got the meal they had chosen at registration that morning. Even if they were the last in, they knew their name was on that dish. This removed the anxiety that some children have about eating something they don't like or they don't recognise. Meal supervisors actively encouraged all children to add some salad to their meal, targeting the seven-a-day goal; a dedicated cook with the skills to meet the healthy eating guidelines; next to no waste in a world where one third of all food is thrown away; a whole-school approach to food; displays around school celebrated food; and once a month other family members were invited to come to lunch to help spread the healthy food message.
I suggest that is needed in all schools to deliver the objectives of 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales'. All primary schools take the register at the start of the school day. So why can't all primary pupils make their lunch choice at the same time? It's starting to happen in Cardiff, but it's definitely not universal. What's not to like about eliminating waste and children's anxieties?
The Soil Association's Food for Life certification is a badge of quality assurance. We have it here in our Senedd canteen. What is required to meet that objective in schools? First, school caterers have to demonstrate compliance with the national healthy eating guidelines. At least three quarters of the dishes on the menu have to be freshly prepared from unprocessed ingredients. Any meat has to be from farms that meet animal welfare standards. Any fish must exclude the Marine Conservation Society's 'fish to avoid' list. Eggs have to be free range. No nasty additives, artificial trans fats or genetically modified ingredients can be used, and free drinking water is prominently available—not hidden away in the toilet. Menus are seasonal and in-season produce is highlighted. All suppliers are verified by the Soil Association to ensure they meet appropriate food standards; otherwise, who knows that that is actually happening? Most importantly, in my mind, catering staff get training in fresh food preparation, as this is something, unfortunately, we cannot take for granted.
Over 10,000 English schools use the Soil Association certification as a proxy of compliance on freshness and quality, and that involves over half all primary schools and many secondary schools as well. The most ambitious school caterers, like Oldham—serving one of the poorest communities in Britain—have gone further to achieve the gold standard: at least 20 per cent of the money spent on ingredients has to be organic, including organic meat. 'Oh, that's unaffordable', I hear people say. No, it's not; they still only spend 67p per pupil per meal. Some of Oldham's brownie points are for their above-average sourcing of food from the UK—that will give them resilience against Brexit uncertainties. They also get brownie points for buying food produced in their region, enriching the local food economy. Research into these Food for Life menus proves that for every £1 spent locally, it delivers a social return on investment of over £3 in the form of increased jobs and markets for local food producers.
So shouldn't all local authorities be aligning their food procurement policy decisions with the economic obligations of the well-being duties of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? If Oldham can do it, why can't Wales? Because it's not just in England. Scotland is also using this framework to drive up their procurement of locally produced food. I suggest that Wales could use it as a tool to strengthen our food foundational economy.
This investment in our children would also be popular with adults too. A recent YouGov poll for Cancer Research UK showed 86 per cent support for measures to ensure every school in Wales complies with the healthy eating guidelines, because we know that this is not the case at the moment. Does it really take the Children's Commissioner for Wales to tell us that turning off the water fountains in one school has forced pupils to use dinner money to buy bottled water?
How is it that Cardiff secondary schools now offer so called 'meal deals' of a bottled drink with food, adding to the plastic waste as well as the malnutrition of many schools? With a third of all Welsh children living in poverty, it is vital that the food served in school is of a high quality. For many it is the only meal they will get. All the research around holiday hunger tells us that. A meal deal should be a main meal with at least two veg plus a pudding of some sort, and that is my challenge to Cardiff.
Yet the squeeze on local authority budgets and, in my view, inadequately trained catering staff in many cases is causing them to trade quality for price. Last year, I'm sad to say, Flintshire outsourced its catering service to a new arm's-length trading company and dispensed with the Soil Association's certification services. To date there hasn't been much difference for children, but it deprives Flintshire of the framework to move forwards not backwards. The Minister for Education has made it very clear that all local authorities and school governors are responsible for monitoring adherence to the Healthy Eating in Schools (Wales) Measure 2009. Flintshire's NEWydd Catering and Cleaning's managing director assures me they still have full traceability for everything they use, and that they dropped the Soil Association because they couldn't get suppliers to deliver in the quantities they required, as well as on grounds of cost. But it's also because the visionary catering leader left. I come back again to Oldham: if Oldham can deliver, why can't Wales?
The Soil Association certification is but one way forward, but it’s what a majority of primary schools and some secondary schools are using in England, and what Scotland is applying to its ambition to become a good food nation. I invite you to compare what pupils in your constituency eat compared with what is dished up for pupils in France, in Spain, in Italy and in Greece. Where’s our ambition for our children? Either we must adopt the Soil Association framework for radical improvement, or devise something better. We cannot stay the same. No change is not an option.

Suzy Davies AC: I had a look at the 2013 guidelines in preparation for this debate, and what I read reminded me, actually, quite a lot of old-fashioned school dinners, which were meat and veg, and custard as your pudding. Obviously, nothing in the olden days, if you can put it that way, to do with vegetarianism or veganism—they hadn't been invented then. There was probably a lot more salt in those days as well. But I can see that things that we consider bad practice, likes cakes and biscuits, are still very much allowed on Welsh menus as long as they don't contain confectionery. So, I guess that means you still can get a cookie the size of your head, so long as it's full of raisins rather than chocolate. And, of course, nobody knew what a cookie was in the 1960s and 1970s, so things have definitely got better, or got worse—it's your call. I don't think there were guidelines all that time ago, but we need them now, that's for sure.
From the dominance of manufactured foods and the transition of things like sweets and crisps from the status of treats to the status of careless snacking or even meal replacements in some cases, to the growth of takeaway culture and loss of cooking skills—a big one I think—there are loads of reasons that have moved us on from that very traditional fare, through the excitement of the introduction of the freeze-dried mashed potato. Do you remember that on the school menu? How excited we all were when Smash was introduced. And then onto that era then when spaghetti hoops were formally considered a vegetable—a bit of an accent colour on a plateful of beige.
But you're quite right, Jenny, we're not the only country to have guidelines for school meals, but you'd be surprised how many EU countries don't have them. Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands—these places we look to for very interesting ideas. Whereas others, like Germany, follow a similar pattern to us, I would say, and similar to England. Maybe Scotland's a bit more ambitious, with lists of what is allowed, what is limited, what is encouraged and what must be provided, accompanied in most cases by guidance on the quantities of different nutrients, including minerals and vitamins.
France, of course, plays to its strengths with a policy for a two-course meal accompanied by a side dish, plus an additional dairy product—all terribly silver service, it strikes me as. But it's Finland I think that's done something very interesting and which I think might give our teachers some ideas, actually, about how they might incorporate children's experience of eating school food into the wellbeing AoLE. Because, to a degree, they've got similar guidance of the type I've just described, but the main thrust of their policy is the sample plate. I don't know if you know about this. The sample plate, which is on view in the canteen, is supposed to encourage, or basically influence, school children about how to fill up their own plate when they get to the lunch queue. In this case, it's made up of half a plate of freshly cooked vegetables, a quarter potatoes, rice or pasta, and a quarter of meat, fish or non-animal protein. With that, the children can have milk and water, some bread and butter if they really want it, and their pudding is fruit. Puddings, like cake, are offered, but only rarely, when the main courses for some reason just don't have the full calorific value. So, they're real treats.
But I think just as important is that the Finnish guidance says that the food must be temptingly presented, at the right temperature, by staff who are respectful of the children, but who are also respectful of the food. So, there's none of this slopping stuff into plastic trays. I think something else that's interesting from Finland is that their school meals cost 8 per cent of the education budget to provide. School meals are free in Finland, but that’s not my point—it's that basic cost about what they spend providing the food of this type with that nutritional quality.
Here, where schools have the same obligation to provide nutritious food, and can recover some of the money, we heard evidence from the children's commissioner—we were talking about children eligible for free school meals—they're being given meals that are worth just £2, or just over. Schools can't make profit on their food, so that's what the thing cost. I'm just thinking, the example that was given in the children's commissioner's report is that a slice of pizza cost £1.95. I'm not really sure why it cost £1.95 when, for a proper meal, you can charge 67p, but it certainly doesn't meet the nutritional guidelines.
As you said, local authorities get, wrapped up in the RSG, money that's based on the number of children eligible for free school meals. The higher the number, the greater that contribution to the RSG. Schools get PDG for those same pupils. So, how on earth can a school get away with offering food worth £2? I think that's a bit of a policy failure in that particular case. I don't know if you know Minister, or whether you can tell us, how much goes into the RSG per free-school-meal pupil and how much of it then finds its way out of the RSG again to provide those nourishing meals we all want to see. I presume we're miles away from Finland's 8 per cent of the education budget—I'm sure we can't afford that.
I just want to finish by saying the guidelines are comprehensive but there's no duty to observe them, apart from promotion of healthy eating and providing drinking water. So, we're back in that area of expectations rather than obligations. So, I'm curious to hear from the Minister about what you can do when schools are caught out persistently ignoring guidelines. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: To many children, including many in my constituency, their school is their major source of food during term time. The breakfast and midday meals provided in schools are the only meals they have, topped up only with snacks at home. Children will attend school in the morning having not eaten properly since their school midday meal the day before. This is not bad parenting, this is poverty, the result of austerity and the cruelty of universal credit. For many children, the breakfast and lunch they get in school is the only healthy food they will eat that day. By improving school meals, we are not only providing important nutritional assistance, but we are also helping kids to be better equipped to feed their minds and learn.

Suzy Davies AC: Will you just take an intervention?

Mike Hedges AC: Please.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you. I take the point you're making about children in poverty, but there are children from pretty well-off families who are just given a pile of money and told, 'Get down the chip shop at lunchtime.' So, I don't think you can just put it into one category of children.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm going to come to something very similar to that later.
Concentrating on what is being taught in a classroom is a lot harder when you are hungry and the need for food exceeds any importance of what you are being taught in the classroom. That is why I am supporting this debate today and why I believe it is incredibly important that children are adequately fed in school and fed healthy meals.
The current situation is that the Healthy Eating in Schools (Nutritional Standards and Requirements) (Wales) Regulations 2013 outlines food and drinks that are suitable to be provided in maintained schools. This also covers foods provided as part of the free breakfast scheme. Governing bodies are required to provide information regarding their actions taken to promote healthy eating and drinking to pupils in their annual reports. Estyn, the education and training inspectorate in Wales, then reports on actions taken by schools to the Welsh Ministers.
Firstly, I want to concentrate on the school midday meal, or school dinner, as it is known to many. One of the many things that differentiates people like me from the wealthy is that I consider the midday meal 'dinner' whilst they describe it as 'lunch', and their main meal, 'dinner', occurs in the evening when I eat 'tea'. I think that's the difference, and a point that was raised by Suzy Davies: they may be given some money to go and get something, but they have a main meal when they get home, because their parents have that level of wealth.

Suzy Davies AC: Absolutely, but I don't think you can just jump to that conclusion, Mike—if you'll take the intervention—because sometimes those parents aren't at home and what you find are 85 packets of crisps on the floor.

Mike Hedges AC: Well, I'll use the word 'many', in which case we may reach a point where we agree.
Three questions I'll pose: what happens when the children are ill or on holiday from school? Then, parents have to find 10 extra meals per week, per child. Is it any wonder that school holidays are the busiest times for foodbanks? I always remember the mother who told me how much she hated school holidays, not because of a need for childcare, but she knew how much extra food she was going to need during the holidays.
Secondly it is not just the school meals, the British Nutrition Foundation says that schools can play an important role in both promoting healthy eating habits among children and ensuring school food provides healthy, balanced and nutritious meals with the appropriate amount of energy and nutrients pupils need. Breakfast clubs, healthy tuck shops, school meals and packed lunches can make an important contribution to the energy and nutrient intake of children. It is crucial that there is a whole-school focus on healthy lifestyles, including the food provided to pupils, as well as the emphasis placed on healthy eating and nutrition throughout the different curriculum subjects. It is important that school food providers work together and the whole school community, from headteachers to parents, the cooks, the teachers and classroom assistants are all involved, in order to provide consistent messages for children to make healthier choices.
Thirdly, how does healthy food benefit children? Healthy eating can help children maintain a healthy weight, avoid certain health problems, stabilise their energy and sharpen their minds. A healthy diet can also have a profound effect on a child’s sense of mental and emotional well-being, helping to prevent conditions such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Eating well can support a child’s healthy growth and development into adulthood and may even play a role in lowering the risk of suicide in young people. If a child has already been diagnosed with a mental health problem, a healthy diet can help the child to manage the symptoms and regain control of their health.
It’s important to remember that children aren’t born with a craving for French fries and pizza and an aversion to broccoli and carrots, and babies are fed with milk, not with chocolate. This conditioning happens over time as kids are exposed to more and more unhealthy food choices that are high in salt and high in sugar—things like chocolate—which they tend to then keep on craving. However, it is possible to reprogramme children’s food cravings so that they crave healthier foods instead. The sooner you introduce wholesome, nutritious choices into children’s diets, the easier they’ll be able to develop a healthy relationship with food that can, and hopefully will, last a lifetime.
Finally, we need to ensure children are fed well in schools because we have no control over how they are fed anywhere else. And so we need to get it right in the schools, and I'm very pleased that Jenny Rathbone has brought this forward and I'm very pleased to support it.

Joyce Watson AC: First of all, I'd like to thank Jenny for raising what is an extremely important issue, particularly about the availability of water to pupils.
I'm going to talk about vegan school meals. I think that school meals can play an important role in our children's health, development and their future choices. Building on that, I believe schools should regularly offer plant-based options without pupils having to make special requests. I'd like to see tasty, nutritious, appropriate vegan meals on daily menus.
The number of vegans in the UK has risen rapidly and more flexitarians are choosing plant-based food as part of their diet. Vegans in the UK have the right to suitable plant-based catering under human rights and equality law, although, in practice, this often does not happen. Research has linked vegan diets with low blood pressure and cholesterol, as well as lower rates of heart disease, type 2 diabetes and some types of cancer. Building familiarity with plant-based food could help offset bad dietary habits, like the ones that Mike was just mentioning, which are formed young, and then they contribute to public health challenges later on. Plant-based diets are also sustainable. Individually, we can reduce our food-related greenhouse gas emissions by up to 50 per cent by switching to a vegan diet in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, land and auto use, and soil erosion. And last year, research at the University of Oxford concluded that eating a vegan diet could be the single best way to reduce your environmental impact on the earth, and the United Nations has urged the global move towards a meat and dairy-free diet for the benefit of the planet. These are things that we've seen young people on the streets campaigning for, and I think that we ought to offer those same young people in their schools the option to make a choice, which I've mentioned isn't very often there, to carry that into their eating choices in school.
It is also the case that plant-based diets are rich in fibre, they're low in saturated fat, provide multiple servings of fruit and veg, and they exclude processed meat. Unfortunately, we're in a situation where very often it is the school meal that is the basis of most children's diet, but then after that we see the foodbanks taking over. And we all know that foodbanks offer processed food, because it's the very nature of what they have to do in order to keep it. So, it would also help—. I'm not actually advocating that people go to foodbanks—it is the case that, very often, that is what's happening. So, to offer a plant-based diet would be an extremely good option for some young people. 
It also gives us the opportunity within schools for young people to see the growing of food within their schools, because many do have small gardens, with the option of eating the produce of what they are growing. And also in some urban settings, where we have urban gardens, the food won't be travelling very far, so it would be nutritionally advantageous to the young people, but also in terms of the climate, it will also sustain that community, and also build communities, because young people can be involved in those activities. You can make this food affordable both within the school and outside the school, and our committee—the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee—are actually doing an inquiry at the moment into allotments. We can build some of the findings back into, I think, a debate like this today.
It's been mentioned today about the waste. Well, if you gave a plant-based diet to children in school, you'd actually be recycling peelings, not plastic.

Can I now call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I begin by thanking Jenny for raising this important issue? Unquestionably, healthy school meals can make a contribution to pupils' well-being, their attainment and positive behaviour. We have done a lot of work to ensure our children have healthier food in our schools, however I do believe that we can do more.
Improving the health and well-being of children is a Welsh Government priority, as is improving the educational attainment of our learners. Ensuring that children have healthier and nutritious food in school is important in delivering on this commitment. Food feeds and fuels the body, but also feeds the brain. It's fundamental in ensuring the well-being of children, and when our children are happy and not hungry at school, then they can truly flourish and learn.
Can I take this opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to thank those in our schools who work so hard every day to provide those meals for our children? Many of you will have heard me say before that my grandma was a cook in Blaenymaes Primary School in Swansea for many years; she peeled a lot of spuds for those kids, but I can tell you she took huge satisfaction in providing those meals too.
The Government has finalised a consultation on 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales'. In Wales, we know that one in four children start primary school overweight or obese, and habits relating to food consumption and declines in levels of physical activity are not new. They have built up over generations. And we also know that there is a very strong correlation to health inequality. I do not believe that we should tolerate any more children growing up with poor dietary habits or insufficient activity in their daily lives, but I also understand that there is no single solution or a simple way to change this. We all have a role to play. The Minister for Health and Social Services will publish a summary of the responses to that consultation by July, and a final strategy will launch in October, setting out our 10-year approach and our ambitions to turn this curve.
I am committed to updating our healthy eating in schools regulations, which were introduced in 2013, so that they include best practice and the most up-to-date current advice—for example on the levels of consumption of sugar and fibre in our diets. But let me be clear: local authorities and governing bodies are responsible for complying with the regulations, and anyone involved in providing food and drink in maintained schools should be aware of the statutory requirements if they plan menus, if they purchase or procure food and prepare food and drinks for our schools. Local authorities are responsible for the procurement of food in schools, and current legislation on procurement already allows schools and local authorities to procure Welsh produce, but it doesn't impose a requirement to do so. This is to avoid situations that could make the supply of produce in some cases either unaffordable or sometimes insufficient. But some local authorities, especially our rural ones, already procure local produce for use in their schools. That has a number of benefits. Earlier on today, I heard people talk about food miles and sustainability, but, actually, many of those schools then go on to use that food as an innovative way of talking about food production and nutrition as part of the wider school curriculum, and I applaud such approaches and innovations in local authorities that do that. As outlined by Mike Hedges, governors should report to parents via their annual report on the issue of school food, and it is subject to Estyn inspection.
On the issue of water, let me be absolutely clear—I should not need to be, but let me be absolutely clear—free and easy access to free drinking water is a non-negotiable. It is quite clear in section 6 of the Healthy Eating in Schools (Wales) Measure, passed by this Assembly back in 2009, that that is a requirement. Now, I am aware of the case quoted by the children's commissioner, although the commissioner was not in a position to tell me which school it was because, rest assured, I would have been, or my department would have been, in contact with that school. In the absence of that information, I, via the Dysg newsletter, informed and reminded each school and each local education authority of their responsibilities on this on 13 March.

Jenny Rathbone AC: However, I would be in a position to tell you that I have seen such denial of water in one of the schools I've visited, and privately I'd be happy to tell you which one it is. But I'm sure that these are not lone examples. You mentioned Estyn earlier on, and I just wanted to probe you as to how much you think Estyn pays any attention to the healthy eating guidelines, because I can remember when I was a lay inspector being told off by the main inspector that this was not an issue we should be exploring.

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, it is clear to me, and it is clear to Estyn, that this is indeed an issue that they should be reporting on—how a school ensures that healthy food and drink are available to the children in school. And, as I said, I'm very disappointed that any school would restrict access to free drinking water for children. It is quite clear in the Measure and, as I said, on 13 March of this year, via the Dysgnewsletter, we reminded all LEAs and all schools of their legal responsibilities in this regard.
Now, revising the regulations is one action to ensure a positive impact on children's well-being, attainment and behaviour. Recent reports, such as 'A Charter for Change' by the Children's Commissioner for Wales, and the recently published children's future food inquiry, have flagged issues ranging from holiday hunger, which Mike spoke about, to school meal debt, which I know has been a concern for the Member Joyce Watson, and non-take-up by those who are entitled to a free school meal. These are factors around poverty that have a significant impact on our children's happiness and their well-being.
Members will be aware that we have taken a number of actions to remove worries associated with some of these issues, whether that'sthinking about how children's well-being can be prioritised or helping remove worries associated with some of the costs of the school day. Schools also play a vital role in promoting positive behaviours. The new school curriculum will support learners to develop an understanding of the contributory factors involved in achieving and maintaining a healthy body weight, particularly the impact of food and nutrition on health and well-being, and the skills to adopt healthy behaviours. Exploring these subject areas within the curriculum, facilitating new experiences and developing new skills in the process, will contribute to the whole-school approach and to learners' lifelong attitudes, I hope, to food and food consumption.
There are also a number of programmes within Welsh schools that could be strengthened and aligned to provide additional support for this agenda. The Welsh network of healthy school schemes, a national programme operating within the majority of Welsh schools, seeks holistically to promote health, both physical and mental, and programmes like eco-schools have the potential to inspire children to value the environment, understand the benefits of being outside, encourages food growing within the school campus, as well as wider issues around plastic and food security and the impact of food production on our sustainability agenda.
Lest we forget, Wales pioneered the way in a number of areas that have benefited our children. We led the way in the UK with the introduction of our free breakfast in primary initiative in 2004. And I admit I was a sceptic at the time, but the evidence and the research on the impact of that policy is clear: it makes a real difference to the educational attainment of those children. In its fifteenth year, the scheme is integral to our wider work to improve food and nutrition in maintained schools. Since 2017, we have funded the school holiday enrichment programme, and since then we have provided £1 million support to SHEP, making available nearly 4,000 places in SHEP schemes across Wales. And, in this financial year, we are making available up to £900,000 to further roll out SHEP, enabling local authorities and partners to support even more families this summer.
The well-being of our children, Deputy Presiding Officer, in conclusion, must be at the heart of our inclusive education system, and promoting and encouraging good eating habits while in school and, hopefully, taking those habits home is a shared responsibility between schools and families. Encouraging children to develop good eating habits will stay with them throughout their lives and help them develop into the happy, confident and healthy individuals all of us would want to see.

Thank you. Can I call on Dai Lloyd to reply to the debate?

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank everyone who has contributed to this important debate on healthy school meals? Of course, tackling the obesity agenda is vital, and one aspect of that is what is taking our attention this afternoon, namely healthy school meals, where, as the Minister has said, habits for life can be developed and built on—if they are good habits, of course.
May I congratulate Jenny Rathbone in the first instance for thinking about this idea and for doing all of the background work in putting forward this debate this afternoon? Thank you also for telling us about all of the activities that are ongoing with the scheme in Flintshire—of course, that was of great interest—and the innovative things going on there. I’m aware of some schools in Swansea where children can order what they want for lunch when they register in the morning, and that is working very well, as well as everything else, because, as Jenny said, this is an issue for the whole school.
And Jenny also emphasised the importance of Soil Association accreditation so that we have that vital standard of provision of the vital foods for our children. That means, of course, responsible procurement in the first instance that acknowledges health needs and environmental needs, indeed, including responsible local procurement, where that is possible.
And, of course, Jenny also emphasised the importance of the availability of water, free of charge and easily accessible, and the Minister also emphasised the importance of that. That is fundamental. Free, clean water: it is a statutory requirement. It should be happening. And we heard, of course, the communication back and forth about whether this is happening in all schools—I’m sure there will be further details forthcoming on that—but the availability of tap water avoids plastic bottles being used, of course, and avoids the need to purchase sugary drinks. So, those two issues are fundamentally important. We understand that; everybody understands that now, I would imagine, and we need to guarantee that clean water is available, free of charge, in every school, as the Minister has told us.

Dai Lloyd AC: Of course, we had some international examples from Jenny, and we do need to look to other countries for the excellent examples in some areas. And, of course, that’s what Suzy Davies started with in her contribution, and thank you to her for that, telling us about some past school lunches—I won't pursue that—but, of course, that international experience, in Finland, in particular, again innovating, as Finland innovates in several different fields, and spending the necessary funds to innovate, it’s true to say. But I like that idea of showing children what a healthy plate of food looks like. That is very important—not just leaving it entirely up to the child’s choice. There’s an expectation there of what a healthy plateful looks like.
Then, moving on to Mike Hedges’s contribution, of course, Mike was emphasising the importance of the school meal, just in case the child did not receive any other food at all during that day—remembering the background of poverty, of course, in Swansea, that's a very important agenda for us—and again emphasised the importance of healthy food for the development and well-being of the child in educational terms and in terms of their health. And Mike also told us about the need or the challenge to provide food for our children during the summer holidays. It’s an issue that arises frequently in Swansea, particularly during the long school holidays in the summer. And Mike made the point that children aren’t born just liking chocolate and hating vegetables—there is a wider role in providing education and how children are brought up in this world, but I think that is outwith the parameters of this debate this afternoon.
And that brings us to the very valuable contribution made by Joyce Watson about the availability of water, again, and making the case for having a vegan option as well in our schools—it’s about having that choice, isn’t it—and emphasising the importance of vegetables in terms of nutrition. And Joyce reminded us of the impact of what we eat, the direct influence of that on our environment. Joyce made the point, as several Members did, that the school meal can influence habits for life, as the child grows to be a young person and then an adult—you establish lifelong eating habits in school. And the very interesting point was made about when schools do grow their own produce to be consumed, emphasising the importance of local produce, but, in educational terms, children can see where their food comes from, and she referred to the current inquiry of the climate change committee on allotments and the importance in that regard of living a healthy life, eating healthy food and decreasing food waste. The result of that inquiry will follow from the climate change committee.
And the Minister, to conclude—I have noted some issues that she referred to already, but she also endorsed the importance of healthy meals to promote the well-being and development of the child, acknowledged the contribution of those who prepare the food, of course, including other members of her family over the years in areas of Swansea some of us know very well. It’s important to acknowledge the vital role played by those who prepare the food in our schools and the contribution they’ve made over the years, because the obesity agenda is the fundamental issue driving all of this. There are several elements to our response as a society to the obesity agenda, as the Minister outlined. The update of the regulations on healthy eating in schools is on the way. Again, the Minister emphasised the importance of local procurement.We had the debate again about the provision of water free of charge, and she reminded us that free breakfasts in school started here in Wales as well. To conclude, the Minister emphasised that the well-being of our children is what’s at the heart of this. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Young Adult Carers

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Item 8 on the agenda is this afternoon's Welsh Conservative debate on young adult carers and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move that motion.

Motion NDM7050 Darren Millar
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes that there are more than 21,000 young adult carers in Wales aged 14-25 who provide assistance and support for families and friends.
2. Is deeply concerned that young adult carers have significantly lower educational attainment than their peers and that they are three times more likely to be not in education, employment or training (NEET).
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to urgently address the support needs of young adult carers, as well as barriers to education, training and employment they face, including:
a) early identification of young carers to help them with accessible support and reduce the likelihood of young people disengaging from education;
b) bringing forward national introduction of the young carers’ ID card alongside a duty for local authorities to implement the card;
c) increasing awareness of local authorities of their duties under the Social Services and Wellbeing (Wales) Act 2014 to promote the wellbeing of carers who need support; and
d) helping young carers to access post-16 education, including through the introduction of a concessionary travel scheme.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. Deputy Presiding Officer, it is a privilege, on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, to open today's debate, standing up to protect our children and further rights to support our younger carers.
The motion being debated today is an extension of our former work here, with the introduction of the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014, the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 and the Donaldson review. However, our motion goes even further, proposing that the more than 21,000 young adult carers in Wales are not only officially recognised for their sacrifices, hard work and invaluable care of family and friends, but are given the practical support that they need in order to look after their own health and needs and to flourish in other areas of their lives. This includes providing financial support to young caring students and we have no hesitation in endorsing a policy brought forward earlier by this group that would see young caring students and apprentices with £60 per week. This Conservative recommendation has been repeatedly ignored and I wish to reiterate my support, and this group's, for this measure.
As a result of further research into the realities of young carers' lives, more so than ever we are aware of the immense and complex difficulties facing our young carers.Crucially, our research and engagement with young caring organisations, such as Carers Trust Wales and the Prince's Trust, has illustrated that young carers do require further frameworks of support, and that each instance of caring and supporting a family member or other loved one is rather unique.
Young adult carers range from 14 to 16-year-olds in schools—although, I have to say I heard recently of a young carer of eight years old—trying to manage their GCSE commitments and maturity into adolescence, to 18-year-olds in sixth form; 20-year-olds in university and 24 and 25-year-olds trying to adapt to the demands of adult and work life. Whilst I fully recognise that this path can vary depending on the individual, it is widely corroborated that young adult carers are far less likely to be in education, employment or other training. In fact, according to young carers in Wales, young adult carers are three times more likely to be or have been classified as not in education, employment or training.This has been supported by the Audit Commission, which, as early as 2010, concluded that young carers between ages 16 and 18 were twice more likely to have been NEET for over six months.And, according to the research from Carers Trust Wales, ‘Time to be Heard Wales’, the most common qualification among the survey respondents was a grade D at GCSE.Yet, Deputy Presiding Officer, these educational barriers and challenges have been identified at earlier stages in school life.
In 2014, the University of Nottingham concluded in their report, ‘Time to be Heard: A Call for Recognition and Support for Young Adult Carers’, that one quarter of young carers reported experiences of bullying and abuse in school purely because of their caring role and responsibilities.Given the myriad of ways in which one can act as a carer, classmates may find the situation of a carer’s parents or sibling actually laughable—we know of instances of that—subjecting them to humiliation and, in fact, deep embarrassment.
Similarly, schoolchildren may abuse and bully a young carer if they find they are attending to a disability of another, or because of their poor academic performance, financial troubles, emotional maturity and personality characteristics that seem at odds with other members of the class. Young adult carers should not be stigmatised and subject to bullying, and, in addressing the concerning statistics on academic and educational performance, the Welsh Government must acknowledge the social and emotional dimensions that influence these trends and endeavour to encourage schools and further education institutions to develop practical ways of supporting this vulnerable and disadvantaged group.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: As indicated by research from the Department for Education, the most vulnerable carers are those who are unsupported and whose responsibilities are disproportionate to their own age and maturity.As recommended by Estyn, the first task for educational sites should be to identify those students that do have caring responsibilities and to go further by compiling a record of the total number of young carers who are undertaking various educational programmes and qualifications whilst juggling these caring responsibilities in the home. To reiterate, what distinguishes a young carer are that their responsibilities persist over time and that their input is elemental to maintaining the health or well-being of a family member, or indeed a friend.
Now, in order to support students in the most appropriate way, these carers do need to be identified as early as possible.For this reason, as Conservatives, we are proposing that the Welsh Government do introduce ID cards for carers. This will benefit them by preventing them from repeating their circumstances, which find them so disaggregated from normal life in school or other forms of education, and help them to enhance communication with educational and other health professionals that they find they have no choice other than to interact with.
The success of this guidance is epitomised by Coleg Gwent, which has developed a strategy to specifically support young carers from pre-entry to post-completion. That is to say that prospective and current students with caring responsibilities at Coleg Gwent have access to impartial and tailored support in order to maximise their learning experience and achievement. So, I would, wouldn’t I, given what’s been said here, call on the Government to use the success of Coleg Gwent as an example to further educational institutions so that young carers are not only given an opportunity to improve their lives and achieve success—. We could go on, actually, talking about the negatives, but when you find good practice in an area, my request is that we look into that further, and you as a Government, so as to roll that out across Wales so that not one carer is found wanting of that additional support.
The second critical point is that local authorities across Wales must learn to recognise that the introduction of these cards must be compulsory and that all relevant parties, such as health and educational professions, properly understand the ID cards and their implications. This should be achieved by the launching of an effective campaign before the ID cards are to be introduced. Teachers and healthcare workers—to name others as well—should be aware and understand the card.
Now, without these cards being mandatory and some statutory duty placed on them, we do have evidence to suggest that these cards will not be fully rolled out across all local authorities. Why should we see one authority be very good, and then another authority not bothering to do this? So, really, for uniformity and consistency, it is imperative that there is a statutory duty applied to this. Without these cards being mandatory, there is a risk of regional variation causing unfairness, and the benefits of these cards being missed out if local authorities simply choose not to endorse them.
Indeed, it is also essential that local authorities uphold their responsibilities under the extended Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014. We’re now in 2019, so why not work with that legislation and make it meaningful? They need to improve their communication with the public about what this Act entails and how it might benefit our young carers. Local authorities across Wales need to ensure that carers are able to access a timely carer's assessment so that they can support them with the challenges they face by providing them with information and advice and signpost them in the direction of the areas they need to go. Given that over 50 per cent of young adult carers suffer with mental health problems—that’s a huge statistic—it is essential that well-being support is included. Furthermore, as previously mentioned, the key area for improvement concerns education, employment and training, as this is where young carers are demonstrating significant underperformance compared to non-carers.
We talk, don't we, a lot in Government and local authorities, and a lot of areas where public services are delivered, about equality across the piste. This is a classic example. You cannot have a situation where 50 per cent of young carers have got mental health needs and that those are simply going unaddressed. This is an area that can improve their sense of fulfilment and self-esteem by achieving success and having the opportunity to progress in their chosen area of work. By adopting these frameworks in educational settings, it is hoped that the number of premature departures from university by these group should actually decrease.
Integral to these programmes should be the introduction of a concessionary fares scheme, to again overcome the financial barriers that young carers may face in actually getting out there to attend further education. According to the Learning and Work Institute, 24 per cent of young adult carers believe that financial constraints is what is actually preventing them from attending further education. Currently, the concessionary fares scheme only provides free public transport to those aged 60 and above, service veterans and disabled people, yet this does not take into consideration how vital young carers are in our society, and how their contribution in conjunction with other carers saves our economy here in Wales £8.1 billion a year.
So, today, Deputy Minister and deputy Llywydd, I call on the Welsh Government to support the recommendations proposed today to continue prioritising the needs of our young adult carers, to ensure they do receive the care and support that they need to continue their honourable role and have the best chance to cultivate a successful and fulfilling life. I for one am, and I know that Members on these benches are, looking forward to the forthcoming Carers Week. We have many third-party agencies working really hard to highlight the issues I have done so here today. It is now for Welsh Government to actually accept their own responsibilities as regards this. Please support our motions here today. Thank you.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to move amendment 1 formally.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
In point 3b, delete 'alongside a duty for local authorities to implement the card' and replace with 'and working with local authorities to implement the card'.

Amendment 1 moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Formally.

Thank you very much. I call on Dai Lloyd to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Dai.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Insert as new sub-point at end of point 3:
'ensuring that respite care provision improves so that young carers can have a break.'

Amendment 2 moved.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to be able to contribute to this debate on young adult carers, and I move the amendment on the importance of respite care for young carers.
Of course, Janet Finch-Saunders has described the landscape for young carers very well. I won't expand on that. But I'm also contributing this afternoon as the Chair of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, because the committee is currently undertaking an inquiry into the impact of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 in relation to carers. The committee has completed its evidence gathering and is in the stages of drafting the report with a view to publishing before the summer recess, so we don't want to pre-empt any of the committee’s findings in this debate.
However, as part of the inquiry earlier this year, on Young Carers Awareness Day—which was on 31 January this year—the committee devoted a day to young carers to hear their views on how well the Act is working for them. We spoke to a group of young carers aged between 10 and 22 from across Wales, and in this short contribution, I will outline some of the key issues heard by the committee that face young carers in Wales today.
Many young carers have significant responsibilities, both for the person with an illness or disability, and for other family members. This can include providing emotional support as well as help with health needs, mobility and domestic tasks. In some cases, this can occupy a considerable amount of time, which affects young carers' education as well as their social lives and their leisure opportunities. The impact of caring on children and young people is substantial, and young carers face worse prospects than their peers, for example in terms of jobs and accessing higher education.
The number of young carers is increasing, as is the complexity of their needs. Young carer support schemes play a vital role in facilitatingleisure activities and opportunities for young carers to meet and share their experiences and to support each other. They support young carers who, on average, provide between 15 and 20 hours per week of care.
The approach of local authorities to the assessment of the needs of young carers under the Act is also variable. Some young carers have not had their own needs assessed, while others have been assessed without being aware of it. Young carers' needs should be assessed in the family context, and not in isolation. Evidence from third sector bodies suggests that the steps that are taken to prioritise young carers have declined during the last five years.
School can be an important source of support for young carers. Getting good support in school can often depend on the commitment of an individual teacher, and awareness of young carers and the support that they need is often poor across the school as a whole. Many young carers do not feel supported at school, and not all young carers are aware of the support available to them in this setting. Some young carers are reluctant to identify themselves at school for fear of facing stigma or bullying, especially if they are caring for a person with mental health issues. Young carers say that it's important to have someone at school who they feel that they can trust and who understands the challenges that they face as young people who have caring duties for other people.
I very much look forward to bringing this important report forward to the Assembly later this year. Thank you very much.

Suzy Davies AC: I'm sure that this is going to be a good-tempered debate in which all of us will be exploring different ways to support members of the population in whom we all take a particular interest. We often praise nurses and teachers and care workers and steel workers, even, but our unpaid carers, especially our young carers, I think, deserve special attention from us as Assembly Members.

Suzy Davies AC: I very much welcome Dai Lloyd's amendment. We're going to support that, and I look forward to reading the report in due course.

Suzy Davies AC: But I have to say that I really am disappointed with the Government amendment. I know that it doesn't look like much of a change at first glance, but what I see is just another example of something that this Government does time and time again, and that is use its powers to 'expect' rather than to 'achieve'. I did a quick skim through the Record of Proceedings and saw that Ministers had used the word 'expect' 36 times during scrutiny sessions in 2019, and I'm bound to have missed a few. But, you're the Government. You don't have to expect; you can insist. I find it hugely frustrating, both personally and on behalf of constituents, to know that Government, when there is complete agreement on a policy on all sides in the Chamber, can do something but chooses not to. So, obviously, I'm delighted that the Carers Trust are helping advise Government, but that is not a commitment to implement the introduction of an ID card consistently across Wales. You can promote this ID card through network partners and social media as much as you like, but if you leave this to the discretion of councils and the RSG, then your expectations will not be met.
So, Deputy Minister, I'm going to go further than Janet Finch-Saunders today and invite you to withdraw your amendment and use your power to create the duty we call for in our motion, and do this this one thing for young carers. I think you can do it without resorting to major legislation. We are already sceptical about flagship statutes that turn out to give hurt and delight not: all those dashed expectations of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act, and possibly now the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act, based on what we heard today. Should we be celebrating our rights-led legislation, of which we've been proud, if it offers no attainable remedies for our constituents? I'm afraid that the social services Act has let down carers, including young carers, when they were very much in the mind of us all when we passed that legislation.
So, let's turn to the positives. The information on the internet about other countries and how they recognise and support their young carers is surprisingly small and aggregated with information about carers as a whole. Of course, it has not been possible for me to delve into the Government sites of every country on the planet, all in different languages, but it does suggest that, perhaps, we in the UK and particularly in Wales recognise our debt to young carers more than in other parts of the world, even if we aren't meeting their needs. At least we're trying.
The awareness raising through GP surgeries, inviting visitors to ask themselves whether they are carers, is a very visible campaign. I think that the Carers Trust and the various local organisations like Bridgend Carers in my region—sadly threatened by this baffling funding withdrawal by the local authority—deserve recognition for the work they do, not just in raising awareness but caring for carers. But it's young carers we're focusing on in this debate and I hope that the Deputy Minister will be able to tell us something about the current work that Welsh Government is doing to help children and young people self-identify as carers.
I just want to wrap up here with a reminder of our own young carers futures grant. It was a policy that Welsh Conservatives developed after speaking directly to young adult carers in Carmarthenshire YAC and Carers Trust. All of us are looking for ways to kick down barriers that get in the way of young people building their best future and, in a nutshell, this grant would replace any carer’s allowance lost to young people in full-time post-16 education or training. I know there are other support mechanisms, university and hardship funds, the adult dependent grant for older carers, but there's nothing that a young adult carer could have as of right—an enforceable right. That brings me back to the point I was making earlier about the ID card. I think the futures grant is a good policy, supporting aspiration, obviously, for young carers, but promoting women’s equality—think how many young adult carers are young women. I hope that the Welsh Government will just look past the blue rosette on this occasion and give this idea serious consideration.
Finally, I just want a quick shout out for Bridgend College, who have a college champion for student carers and, critically, are responsible for staff training. I'm sure we'll all be aware, to a degree, of the mixed levels of awareness within the education profession about how they can identify young carers and then support them, so I think there's a big shout of for Bridgend College to show how it can be done. So it's not just Coleg Gwent; they're doing it in South Wales West as well. Thank you very much.

Rhianon Passmore AC: This is indeed an important debate. The Welsh Labour Government greatly values the vital role that young adult carers play in supporting those they care for, and this is reflected in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which provides for enhanced rights for all carers in Wales. The Act gave carers for the first time the same rights as they people whom they care for. Carers no longer needed to demonstrate that they provide significant care in order to have their needs assessed and receive the support available to them. Local authorities now have a statutory duty to proactively inform carers of their right to be assessed, and on completion of that assessment, must put in place arrangements to meet the needs identified and put a statutory care plan in place. Where this does not happen, it should.
It reflects the principle that carers, if effectively supported, provide a preventative service in their own right, enabling people who are frail, vulnerable or who have long-term conditions to stay living at home longer as members of their local communities. Implementation of the Act is still at a relatively early stage, and the Welsh Government in its actions fully recognises that more needs to be done to ensure that carers are aware of their rights. As has been stated, a ministerial advisory group has been established to drive forward proactive implementation of the Act and to oversee the three national priorities identified by Welsh Government to improve the lives of carers.
And in order to support the delivery of the Wales enhanced carersrights under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act, the Welsh Labour Government has provided nearly £1.1 million annually to local health boards to work collaboratively with partners to deliver against those national priorities. A targeted portion of this funding is ring-fenced specifically to support young carers. And in recognition, in November 2018, the Welsh Labour Government announced an additional £50 million of funding to support carers and adults with care needs. This new additional funding will bolster progress on delivering those national priorities and will allow third sector organisations to investigate ways to improve the quality and appropriateness of respite support for carers of all ages in Wales. This is absolutely critical.
Carers have also been brought into the remit of the Welsh Government's £60 million integrated care fund. The ICF can now be used to fund innovative work that supports a more integrated and more collaborative approach for carers and their loved ones, and that is a recognition. So, as a nation with an industrial heritage and the greater ill health that is associated with such a legacy, we know that Wales has the highest proportion of carers in the UK, more than in any one region of England at 12 per cent, and the highest proportion of older carers and of carers providing more than 50 hours of care a week. So, with that increase in the older population, we are likely to see more older people in a caring role, with the number of carers over 85 predicted to double in the next 20 years.
The Welsh Labour Government is committed to improving the lives of carers of all ages, and wants to support carers so that they can have a life outside of those caring responsibilities. And I know from my own constituency of Islwyn that Caerphilly County Borough Council has sought to proactively tackle the emergency needs of carers via a range of innovative measures, including advice on dealing with emergencies, and an emergency card scheme together with the carers time-out service, enabling carers to better access time to actually be able to attend their own appointments for their own health needs.
However, there is recognition across the Chamber that still much more is needed to be done in such a critical and important arena, especially for the young people of Wales. And as such, I will be supporting the forthcoming Carers Week in Islwyn, and that Carers Week is an annual proactive campaign, as we know, to raise awareness of caring, highlight the challenges carers face, and recognise the contribution they make to families and communities throughout the UK. With the right information, caring is possible, but it is tough, and if it's not properly supported, it will be even tougher if you're a child. So, I take this opportunity to urge all Members present to highlight the work of young carers during Carers Week in June across their constituencies and regions.
To conclude, Deputy Llywydd, I know that the Welsh Government will continue to advance the rights of young carers, and I look forward, very much, to hearing what further strategic actions we can take in this critical regard. Thank you.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Carers play a vital role in our society. Whether it be financially or socially, the contribution made by carers simply cannot be overstated. Not only are more people caring, but they are caring for longer, and the number of people needing care and those needing care for longer periods of time has increased significantly in Wales. It is imperative, therefore, that we recognise the extent to which our economy relies on unpaid care provided by families and friends. If just a small proportion of the people providing care were no longer able to do so, the cost burden would be substantial.
For young adult carers, the struggle of trying to juggle the responsibility of caring for a loved one with their education, careers and friendship can have a lasting impact on their future. Our debate this afternoon is about supporting young carers so that they are able to continue to do the vital work. They're valued so highly. One must care for carers here. There are more than 22,000 young carers, as Janet earlier said, aged between 14 and 25 in Wales. The pressure faced by these young people due to their caring duties can have a negative impact on their own physical health, mental health, education and employment opportunities in future.
I wish to concentrate my remarks this afternoon on the barriers young carers face in education. Without support, they can struggle to attend school and make good educational progress. Around one in 20 young carers miss school because of their caring responsibilities. They have significantly lower educational attainment at GCSE level, and also in higher education, and are more likely than the national average not to be in education, employment or training between the ages of 16 and 19—that is called NEET in educational terms.
It is totally unacceptable, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the life chances of these young people should be reduced simply because they have to care for sick relatives in this part of the world. If they do manage to make it to college and university, over half report experiencing difficulties because of their caring role, and they consider dropping out from there. Colleges and universities need to do more to recognise and support the needs of young carers. The Carers Trust highlighted the lack of formal mechanisms to identify or count carers in school or in further and higher education. There are some notable exceptions. Coleg Gwent, which was mentioned earlier, for example, has a strategy to identify young carers at the earliest point, so that a tailor-made support service can be provided to them. I hope all institutions in Wales can follow their example. We, on this side of the Chamber, have made a number of proposals to assist young carers. It is a noble job to look after others. But 74 per cent of carers in Wales have already mentioned that they suffer mental illness as a result of this caring in their later age.
I wish to address, in my closing remarks this afternoon, that one aspect of this support is the right to flexible, high-quality respite. They need to look after themselves. Looking after a family member or a friend is highly rewarding but also extremely demanding. A break, even if just for a few days, can boost your energy level and enthusiasm. Just knowing that you are able to escape for a break is a great incentive, particularly when you're confident that the person you care for will be well-looked after in your absence. This would have a huge impact on the health and well-being of young carers. Carers are doing more than ever to support others. It is our moral duty to ensure they get the support and recognition they need and deserve.
Deputy Presiding Officer, my wife had a stroke last year. She just survived. She was that close to death. The NHS did a wonderful job. I do a little bit, I'm not saying I do a lot. I care for her. In the morning, I make sure that she gets up from the bed and I make a cup of tea and make sure she's up during the day. She can walk around and do everything but she's still got some mental problems at the moment. I put a little note on the plug, 'Make sure you turn the heater off', 'Make sure you turn the light off'. These minor things. It is the job of a carer. I feel satisfaction. I've been married for more than 36 years. For loved ones, you feel pleasure doing it. But what I'm thinking is, when you're older, who's going to look after you? It's that sort of thing. From those of a young age to others, it's a noble job. It's our moral duty to make sure that this Chamber recognises the need for carers to be looked after in our culture and our society. We must set an example to the world that we are best in the world. Thank you.

David Melding AC: Can I just say, following Oscar, that I thought he summed up there the feeling that carers have for the person they care for? It's an act of deep love but it's a demanding act as well. I think it's good that we remember the context in which these activities are performed.
Can I start with an observation? This is the second week the First Minister has sat through the Conservative debate. We debated e-sports last week, and we're debating young adultcarers this week. I think it's fair to say that, traditionally, First Ministers have not always taken the learning opportunity of sitting through a Conservative debate. But I do believe it does show that the minority parties do bring some genuinely non-partisan subjects to the Chamber that need attention and need us all to work together. So, I'm very pleased to see that the Government are taking this debate very seriously.
There are a number of things that I was going to mention that have already been raised, but I would perhaps take further those remarks that were just made to talk about the need for multi-agency working. The various carers charities emphasise this. We've heard the sometimes lack of support that young carers get at school, then their median grade achieved at GCSE is often a D. That indicates that they were very close to getting a higher grade. I think that's something to be very mindful of. And then when they go into FE, they often there don't get support, they're not always receiving the carers assessment to which they're entitled from the local authority, and people are just not putting the picture together. And that's what we need to resolve.
But the political parties need to do the same. One of the great barriers we have at the moment is how young carers access further and higher education. It can end their right to the carers allowance if they're pursuing more than 21 hours' study. We've heard that our proposal is to try to meet that with a grant that we could control, a young carers futures grant. That would come at a considerable expense, and it is a priority that we feel very committed to. I think we need to send a message also to the UK Government that the way carers receive their various allowances, but particularly the carers allowance, needs to be looked at.It's also the case that part-time employment and even voluntary employment, sometimes, which is so needed for carers to get those social connections, the sense of well-being and a life beyond just caring—it's very, very important that we sustain that.
We've heard a little bit this afternoon about the importance of young carers' health and well-being. How great is that, when you're in early adulthood? You are forming new relationships, you are looking for new opportunities—all these things are happening. And I think we would all say that that period of youth, in our late teens and 20s, is a very, very precious time. I don't think there's anything greater than being young, and I say that as someone who is about to attain his fifty-seventh birthday. But, you know, you don't get your youth twice either. But there are also many challenges, in terms of your experience to deal with complicated and difficult situations, your general lack of income—as you get older, you get more money and the need to spend it sometimes declines, whereas when you're younger, those demands are very intense. So, I think we need to be aware of these health and well-being issues and we need to connect up, really, the work that the Welsh Government can do, the genuine pressure we need to put on the UK Government in terms of what we see that our young carers need, and how, at the moment, perhaps, adjustment to some of the welfare and benefit regulations needs to be fully considered.
So, I do hope the working group that's looking at how young carers may be financially supported comes forward very soon and that you will reflect on our suggestion, but I do think there is a need to send a clear message from this Assembly that all parties must work together to achieve these objectives, because young carers are doing a tremendous job for us and we should be really grateful for their high-quality citizenship and the love they show those they care for.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you to the Tory group for bringing the motion, which I support, although I do find it astounding that, in 2019, we have so many young carers. I met an 18-year-old carer at the weekend who is looking after her ill mother and disabled sister. She's got no life of her own. She deserves a medal, she deserves support, but more than that, she deserves that life of her own, and the authorities are depriving her of that.The Government has made noises here about supporting initiatives against modern slavery, but then allow this to happen to thousands of our country's children. Had the girl I met the other day been trafficked here and held in domestic slavery, attempts would rightly be made to rescue her, so why isn't she and her family being given the support they need to free her and thousands of others?
Labour say that they're the party of the NHS and the vulnerable, yet we have a health and social care system that increases inequality. Children of wealthy families won't have their education or career hampered by having to care for a family member. Their life chances will continue to increase, while the child from a poor family will be held back—not by the fact they have a family member who needs care, but by the state withholding help that it could, if it wanted to, provide and that it's actually there to provide. That's what our welfare system was supposed to be there for, so that children wouldn't be working and taking the lion's share of the responsibility for caring for a sick relative.
Young carers are working for nothing, not even the minimum wage. Now, some people defend the situation by saying that young people are keen to help in the care of loved ones. That's very true and it's absolutely laudable and lovely that children and young people want to help their sick family members, but just because they want to do that doesn't mean to say that we should let them—that we should let them sacrifice their lives, their young lives, to do a job that the social care system should be doing.
There are plenty of things that we don't allow young people to do for their own protection, and we age-restrict it. In 2019 it's absurd that we have children who have to give care. We're a modern nation; so much has been discovered in the last 50 years and life has been transformed. We can cure all sorts of illnesses that couldn't be cured 50 years ago, all sorts of technological advancements, and yet we still have children who are forced to care because the state isn't providing the support they need.
So, I really do support the Tory motion, but I do so with a heavy heart, and a massive wish that this motion wasn't necessary. So, I'll be supporting the Plaid amendment but not the amendment by Labour, because it is typical of a Government that takes its citizens for granted, siding with Labour councillors and council officers over the people they're supposed to serve. This Government doesn't force local councils to do much. The least they can do is to insist they implement a young carers ID card. Even this Government should be able to do that, surely. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan?

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to reiterate the Welsh Government's support for young adult carers to ensure that young adult carers have every opportunity to reach their potential in life.
I think this is a very important debate. There is a lot of agreement on the whole in the Chamber, and the Government very much supports the spirit of the motion. As Suzy Davies said, this is a well-tempered debate, and I think Oscar's description of a carer's role summed it all up—a noble job.
Wales has the highest proportion of carers under the age of 18 of all the UK nations. According to the 2011 census, there are 29,155 young people under the age of 25 in Wales who are caring for others for at least an hour a week. And, of course, all of these will not need support, but those who have substantial responsibilities do need much better recognition. In our Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, as other speakers have mentioned today, we introduced new rights and duties for local authorities to promote the well-being of carers who need support.
The motion rightly points to concerns about young adults' well-being and about their prospects to reach their full potential. So, let me tackle what the motion asks from the Welsh Government one by one. It asks for early identification, accessible support and preventing disengagement from education. In Wales we do not currently collect national data on the educational attainment of young carers, so it's not possible to say whether or not young carers have significantly lower educational attainment than their peers, as the motion suggests. But that said, we fully recognise the need for young carers to be identified and supported in education to achieve their best outcomes. Work is under way in partnership with Carers Trust Wales to support schools to identify and better support their young carers. 
Similarly, we don't recognise the suggestion that young carers are three times more likely to be not in education, employment or training, as the motion states, and I think these may be figures from England. In Wales we have a successful approach to reducing the number of young children who are NEET through our youth engagement and progression framework, and since its launch, the number of school leavers not entering education, employment or training in Wales has more than halved. However, we do absolutely acknowledge that young carers are much more at risk of becoming NEET, and we are very keen to support them and avoid this happening.
The motion also mentions bringing forward young carers ID cards, together with a duty on local authorities to implement the card, and I referred to the Government's amendment. We are already making very good progress on the new national model of a young carers ID card, and I hope to announce their phased introduction before the end of the year. Last week, I sent a letter to all of the leaders of local authorities about the card, and have already had some very positive responses. We expect absolutely full engagement with our plans. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest we need to impose a duty. The important work of developing the detail of how the ID card is implemented cannot be legislated for. [Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much. You've just said that there's no evidence that we need to impose a duty, which I will take at face value. Have you got evidence—? What is the evidence that every single council will adopt whichever version of the ID card you bring forward?

Julie Morgan AC: The information that we have is that every council will adopt it, and will want to adopt it. And we're starting off on that assumption, because I do think it is better for us to work together in partnership with local authorities, and I have every confidence that they will do it. And in any case, the important work of developing the detail of how the ID card is implemented cannot really be legislated for. Just to give you one example, one young carer told us recently that he takes his disabled brother to the swimming pool and has been told off for being the wrong age for the slides. If he had a wristband, rather than a card, he could signal his need to accompany his brother. This kind of nuance could not possibly be covered in a legal duty. Were we to delay introducing the planned ID card so as to introduce legislation, I think young carers would feel very let down, because there has been considerable engagement with young carers about the ID card. But I will say that if, at any point in the future, there is evidence that there is a need to have legislation, we will certainly review the decision that we made today. But, at the moment, I don't see any reason to have legislation.
The motion also asks the Welsh Government to increase awareness and promote the well-being of carers. As the Minister, I will ensure we monitor the effectiveness of the Social Services and Well-Being (Wales) Act 2014. We have supported the third sector to improve awareness by awarding funding of over £1.7 million from our sustainable social services grant scheme to Carers Wales and to the Carers Trust Wales, and we continue to fund the Young Carers Network.
The motion also asks for help for young carers in accessing post-16 education, including through a concessionary travel scheme. So, as we look at the future of the existing youth discounted card scheme and the wider plans we have for fares and integrated ticketing across the network, we will, of course, look at the needs of young carers very carefully.
Then, to consider Rhun's amendment, we agree that respite is very important, so that young carers can have a break from caring, and we hope that we will look at respite perhaps in many different ways to those we have done in the past, but the Government certainly supports this amendment.
So, I want to reiterate that this is a very important debate. No-one in our community should be left behind, and young adult carers are an inspiration to the rest of us. I think nearly everybody who spoke today did really inspire us with what they said about young carers, because they are leading and showing us how to care for our families and our communities. So, I applaud them, and I'm very pleased to state my support for Carers Week, as others have done, in the second week of June, and we want to celebrate all carers here in Wales.
In November 2017, we published our three national priorities: supporting life alongside caring—it's so important for young adult carers that they have a life of their own; identifying and recognising carers, which I hope the carers ID card will help bring about; and providing information, advice and assistance to carers. Deputy Presiding Officer, we are making inroads to delivering on these priorities, but we do have a long way to go. I know we can't be complacent, and I think the debate today has helped us realise what we have to do. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Shadow Minister Janet Finch-Saunders opened this debate highlighting the need to recognise and support young adult carers in Wales, to recognise independent reports, to recognise progressive Welsh Conservative recommendations for delivering social justice to young carers in Wales. As she said, young adult carers should not be disadvantaged, stigmatised or subjected to bullying. She said that there are more than 21,000 young adult carers in Wales aged 14 to 25, providing assistance and support for families and friends. The Minister actually referred to a higher figure of 29,000 providing care of an hour or more.
The Carers Trust 'Time to be Heard Wales' research referred to found that young adult carers miss or cut short an average of 48 school days a year because of their caring role. They were four times more likely to drop out of college or university than students who were not caring. They rarely receive the assessment of their needs they're entitled to, and they experience higher rates of bullying.
Dai Lloyd moved an amendment highlighting the importance of respite care for young carers, which we will, of course, be supporting. Suzy Davies expressed her disappointment with the Labour Welsh Government amendment. As she said, they don't have to expect local authorities to introduce ID cards across Wales; they can insist. They can do something but choose not to. As Rhianon Passmore said, when things that should happen under the social services and well-being Act don't, they should. Mohammad Asghar referred to the contribution made by young carers, and that cannot be overstated. He talked about more caring being provided and caring longer. The life chances of young carers should not be reduced, and our moral duty is to care for our young carers. As David Melding said, one of the great barriers is how young carers access further and higher education. As Michelle Brown said, young carers deserve a life of their own. The Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan, stated that young adult carers should have every opportunity to reach their potential in life, and, as she said, no-one in our communities should be left behind.
Well, it's now seven years since Flintshire became the first county in Wales to launch an ID card scheme for young carers or children in care to help them explain their situation and ensure that they received proper recognition and quick access to the support services they needed. This was developed by young carers who were either part of Barnardo's Cymru young carers service in Flintshire or supported by children's social services there. As I then said at a meeting in the Senedd seven years ago, it's the first scheme in Wales to help these young people receive the recognition and prompt access to services that they need. The children's commissioner told us he hoped that other local authorities would pick this up and that he was working with the Welsh Government to deliver a national identity card on this basis. Seven years later, it is wrong that this has not happened. I hope you will take heed of our recommendation.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

I intend to move to voting time unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. No.

9. Voting Time

Therefore, the one vote today we have is on the Welsh Conservatives' debate on young adult carers. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed to, we vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 14, no abstentions, 30 against, therefore the motion is not agreed and we move to vote on the amendments.

NDM7050 - Welsh Conservatives debate - motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 30, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 26, no abstentions, 18 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

NDM7050 - Amendment 1: For: 26, Against: 18, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 44, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

NDM7050 - Amendment 2: For: 44, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

And I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7050 as amended:
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes that there are more than 21,000 young adult carers in Wales aged 14-25 who provide assistance and support for families and friends.
2. Is deeply concerned that young adult carers have significantly lower educational attainment than their peers and that they are three times more likely to be not in education, employment or training (NEET).
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to urgently address the support needs of young adult carers, as well as barriers to education, training and employment they face, including:
a) early identification of young carers to help them with accessible support and reduce the likelihood of young people disengaging from education;
b) bringing forward national introduction of the young carers’ ID card and working with local authorities to implement the card
c) increasing awareness of local authorities of their duties under the Social Services and Wellbeing (Wales) Act 2014 to promote the wellbeing of carers who need support;
d) helping young carers to access post-16 education, including through the introduction of a concessionary travel scheme; and
e)ensuring that respite care provision improves so that young carers can have a break.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 40, four abstentions. Therefore, the amended motion is agreed.

NDM7050 - Welsh Conservatives debate - motion as amended: For: 40, Against: 0, Abstain: 4
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

We will now move to the short debate. If Members are leaving the Chamber, can they do so quickly and quietly, please? Can I ask, if Members are leaving the Chamber, please do so?

10. Short Debate: Longer learning for better, safer lives: The case for raising the age of participation in education in Wales

We now turn to the short debate, and I call on Lynne Neagle to speak to the topic she has chosen. Lynne.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to Suzy Davies AM.
There's a common theme to every debate through history on raising the compulsory age of education. Politicians begin and often end their case by citing the impact on the economy. In a discussion about raising the school age in the 1960s, the Tory education Secretary, Edward Boyle, described it as a necessity as it would meet an urgent economic need for more middle managers. I certainly do not start this debate, a debate which I do not believe will end today, in the hope of merely securing more middle managers for Wales. I am starting this debate on raising the participation age to 18 in the hope that we can give our young people not just the skills they need at work, but the security, understanding and resilience they needto lead safe and fulfilling lives. I believe that by holding on to our young people for an additional two years, we can ameliorate the risks associated with isolation, loneliness and the often devastating impact of becoming NEET—not in education, employment or training.

Lynne Neagle AC: The starting point for my case, therefore, is not our GDP or an economic forecast, it is the thematic review of deaths of children and young people through probable suicide. That review, published in 2014 and shortly to be updated, contains detailed case studies and analysis and examines modifiable factors that may have contributed to suicide deaths. It is led by Professor Ann John of Swansea University, who chairs the national advisory group on suicide prevention and self-harm for the Welsh Government, and I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Ann for the work that she does day in, day out to prevent suicide in Wales.
It identifies opportunities for prevention and makes recommendations to reduce the risk of suicide for children and young people in Wales. Many Members here know that the prevention of young suicide is something very close to my heart. I spoke at a conference about children's mental health a little while ago, and the theme of my speech was very much about the importance of listening to the voices of young people. At the end, a delegate came up to me and said, 'I wonder what the young people who have died by suicide would say to us if they were here today'. I found those incredibly difficult, challenging and painful words to hear because, of course, we can't ask them. That is why the thematic review is so crucial. It is one of the very few ways we can actually hear the voices of these young people. It is the closest thing we have to retrospective recommendations directly from those young people themselves on how we could've helped them and how to prevent future deaths.
And the second recommendation from that report said this,
'Welsh Government should explore mechanisms to ensure children and young people between the ages of 16 and 18 years are supported in education or training, which includes work based training. This could be enabled by raising the school leaving age to 18 years.'
That recommendation was based on common themes that emerged in the review, and I'm assured will emerge once again in the updated version we can expect in a few weeks.
In the 14 cases that were given in-depth narratives by the review panel, common factors were identified, including the fact that many had specific educational needs or restricted educational attainment. Many were not in education, employment or training, and, as such, received little or no support. And a separate study into social isolation and loneliness in the UK found that, for young adults, it is those individuals who do not progress to further education, training or employment who are most at risk of becoming socially isolated and lonely. This leads to individuals falling behind their peers in the labour market and may result in long-term income deprivation and increased likelihood of social isolation.
By way of contrast, we know the sense of belonging and well-being that educational settings can afford young people, whether that be in school, college or an apprenticeship. The adult learning awards highlight every year the value that education can return to previously troubled lives. Emily's story is one we will all recognise from our communities. A difficult upbringing had left her withdrawn, battling with mental health issues and low self-esteem. At 15, she was diagnosed with anorexia and depression; she had become isolated. But after seeing a teaching assistant work with her son, Emily became inspired to control her anxiety and lack of confidence and enrolled on an adult community learning introduction to childcare course. She has thrived in this learning environment and has progressed on to the level 2 programme as well as taking on other courses. Education gave Emily the chance she needed to battle back from the brink. She isn't alone. I know that good progress has been made in Wales in terms of reducing the number of young people who are NEET and in raising our skills levels across the board, but that is not the case for all.
The Bevan Foundation report, 'I want to be something', told us that one in three year 11 pupils are leaving school without five good GCSEs. The options that face thoseyoung people are too confusing, limited and not fit for purpose. The report, again based on young people's actual lived experience, says that the current plethora of courses and programmes means that a minority simply bounce around different schemes before becoming long-term NEET, with negative consequences for the rest of their lives.

Lynne Neagle AC: One of the standout quotes in that report was from someone trying to guide young people through that confusing new reality. They said:
'a lot of young people that we’ve got have major anxiety issues, mental health issues…School is a good kind of structured approach for them and there’s support for them…When that support stops, when that structure and that routine stops, what we find is that young people retreat into their bedrooms…and don’t leave'.
And it is this confusion and this letting go at too early an age that makes me think we need to move to a system of compulsory education or training up to 18. This is a change that has been introduced in England, with cross-party support, and where levels of NEETs in young people is now below that of Wales. Central to the debate that brought about that change was a recognition that people from the most deprived backgrounds, who had the most to gain from continuing education, would be less likely to participate voluntarily.
So, the value of this policy, I believe, is that it puts the onus and responsibility on Government and not on young people themselves. We could develop the perfect pathway for every teenager in Wales, but, by placing the responsibility on them to find their own way, we're self-evidently going to lose a whole tranche of children most vulnerable to becoming NEET in the first place. And, while raising the age of participation would not capture them all, it would mean that they all should be offered opportunities and that there is some oversight of 16 and 17-year-olds, who are, essentially, still children.
I do not contend, though, that we merely copy the example of England. I think we would do well to look to Ontario, where this change was introduced in a comprehensive way, giving learners genuine and clear choices about how to complete their education journey. It involves the whole community, not just schools and colleges. The 2006 Act passed in Ontario is clear in its ambition. It says that the province as a whole will
'Affirm that no initiative is more essential to the province's future than a plan that ensures young people keep learning until they graduate or turn 18, whether it is in classroom or through equivalent learning opportunities, such as an apprenticeship or workplace training program'.
I think England took the idea of raising the participation age forward without fully learning from Ontario's accompanying initiatives, like the student success programme, for example. Student success teams in Ontario provide extra attention and support for individual students who need it. They have the opportunity to benefit from individualised attention and support, choose from more options for learning, such as expanded co-operative education, specialist high skills majors, dual credits and e-learning. And, crucially, they are given help to solve problems they previously may have faced alone.
By following more closely the example of Ontario, we would avoid some of the mistakes we've seen in England. Indeed, I think we already have two obvious advantages to delivering this kind of change in Wales, distinct to our own policy agenda. Firstly, we have a genuinely comprehensive form of secondary education and less marketisation of the schools and college system. This will reduce complexity in delivering different options for learning in different settings. Secondly, the history of raising the participation age is one of policymakers putting the cart before the horse. First, the age limit has been increased, but only after that change does there come proper evaluation and reform of the curriculum. So, in Wales at the moment, we have the chance to do this the right way around. As my committee's 'Mind over matter' report noted, the current reform of the curriculum presents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to mainstream emotional well-being and mental health in education. And, as the Minister has said, the point of these reforms is to construct a system powered by purpose and the type of citizens we'd like to see.
This is about shaping our society for the better, not just developing more effective economic agents and consumers. Central to that bigger, more important mission is the necessity to hold on to our learners for as long as we can. We do have an opportunity to do the right thingthe right wayin the right order here in Wales. I believe we owe it to our young people to take it.
As Michelle Obama wrote about her own schooling:
'Through my education, I didn’t just develop skills, I didn’t just develop the ability to learn, but I developed confidence.'
I can't think of a time when our children need that confidence more than they do today, faced with economic uncertainty, social fracture and a deepening mental health crisis. Sometimes, as policy makers, we cannot see the wood for the trees. I believe that is what's happening here. None of us want to see our children and young people lonely and isolated, none of us disputes the damaging long-term effects of being NEET, none of us disputes the positive impact the right education setting has on the well-being of children and young people. All of us want an education system that responds to the emotional needs of our pupils, as well as the economy, and yet we seem shy of making the one change that would speak to all these things. Raising the participation age in Wales is surely an idea whose time has come. Thank you.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you ever so much for that, Lynne. I listened with great interest and with my shadow Minister hat on. Certainly, I'd like to see the reports you referred to, but also I thought the idea itself has a lot of merit in it. I appreciate what you said about the English system; what I would say is that bit of it—it's work, education or training, and perhaps where there's always space for a little bit more innovation is to look at what training actually looks like. The point you made about—was she called Emily—actually getting, later in her life, a brand-new start, effectively, through adult education is not something we should overlook either, because there'll always be people who lose out first time, even second time. That's why I just wanted to mention briefly, if you don't mind, that it wasn't so very long ago that it was the over-50s who were the largest cohort of people who were unemployed not through choice. So, I just want to mention the work of Prime Cymru, who actually help re-educate people who are much older than those who you are talking about, to give them their fourth chances, if you like, even to start businesses of their own in their late 50s. So, we are talking about education as a lifelong experience, but the particular points you've made in your short debate today I think are really interesting, so thank you very much for bringing them to our attention.

Thank you. Can I call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Deputy PresidingOfficer, and I'd like to also thank Lynne for bringing forward this debate today. I do recognise the case that Lynne has made very powerfully this afternoon with regard to the compulsory education age. I think it's important, of course, to emphasise the Government's commitment, as you already have recognised, Lynne, to genuine lifelong learning and the cultural well-being and economic benefits this brings to individuals and society at large. Of course, the Welsh Government has committed to explore a new Welsh right to lifelong learning.
We recognise, and this has been set out by the Learning and Work Institute Wales, that adult learning helps develop a sense of self, improves personal health and tackles social isolation, and Suzy has commented on that just now. It is important that we learn about how this can be delivered, so Welsh Government officials recently attended a seminar at the DOVE workshop in Banwen on how we take forward that right to lifelong learning. That was a particular focus on the role of adult education and empowering citizens, and a strong connection was made to the purposes of the new school curriculum, which you, of course, have mentioned. Clearly, that should drive a new purpose in terms of empowering our young citizens.
I think we'd all agree that enabling ethical, informed, ambitious and healthy learners could be the purposes for a whole education system and not just stop at 16. So, I wanted to underline those points about learning from cradle to grave, of continuing education and its economic and social benefits, before coming back to the issue of raising the age of compulsory education.
As you pointed out, we don't have a policy of compulsory education after 16 years of age, but it doesn't mean that we don't provide for our young people after that age—far from it. We are ambitious in our agenda to reform the post-16 strategic funding and planning context through our post-compulsory education and training proposals, including a new commission for tertiary education and research. Our national mission mustn't stop at the school gates. In keeping with our strategy for the school system, our aim is to promote better quality, challenge poor performance, celebrate and share good practice, and raise standards across the board. We want a system that motivates people so that they want to remain in education and training.
The Welsh Government is yet to see any conclusive evidence that compulsion is a better approach than encouragement when it comes to progression from 16, and I recall these discussions when I was formerly education Minister. At that time we were introducing and driving forward the 14-19 learning pathways policy, and it is pleasing to see that that has made an important, positive impact. All young people at post 16 are offered a minimum of 30 choices, which includes at least five vocational choices, and, by enabling learners to follow courses that they see as being relevant to their needs, interests and aspirations, we believe this will help them to develop those skills that are necessary for progressing into higher education or high-skilled employment. But learning and training is not just about gaining skills and qualifications, as, obviously, you've made so clear, and it has to be about the whole person. The education system must help children and young people to address their needs, but also enable them to be well rounded and compassionate in their own way.

Nick Ramsay AC: Will you take an intervention? Thanks for giving way, Jane. We shouldn't forget, of course, the valuable role of apprenticeships as well. A lot of young people, or a proportion of young people, who leave earlier in the school life do so because they don't really feel that what they're doing is for them, but we've seen from the example of some apprenticeships being taken up that that can fill that gap. So, I'm not saying that that should take over from what you're talking about, Lynne, but I think the two go together.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, yes, and I think that's something, again, where we have invested in apprenticeships, which have been the right pathway for many young people, and sometimes those apprenticeships also can lead to further and higher education beyond the time of that apprenticeship, and making those apprenticeships open and accessible as well as being funded is crucially important. We've got to make sure that our schools and colleges are supportive places that help to sustain the well-being of our learners.
So, we come onto the important points that Lynne Neagle has raised about the emotional and mental health of our young people, which is paramount. We want to make sure they're fully supported through each stage of their education to be emotionally and mentally resilient, confident, and, above all, happy. That's why I'm pleased we as a Government are working with the health Minister and yourself as committee Chair on implementing the Government's response to the Children, Young People and Education Committee's inspiring committee report, 'Mind over matter'. I'm glad, also, to have the opportunity to join you in thanking Professor Ann John for her work, and I note the exchange you had with her at the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, and that was back last year, on suicide prevention. I note that she did say a lot of recommendations from the thematic review were being followed up, and I think the timing of this debate is key, that we take stock of what is happening, and the work on 'Mind over matter', which had such strong support across this Chamber, has to be implemented in terms of the Government response. We know that ensuring mental health and well-being is central to the way schools work is of vital importance. Our children and young people need the right support in the right place at the right time to enable them to grow up in healthy and nurturing environments. This work will give them the best possible opportunity to fulfil their true potential.
In terms of young people not in education, employment or training, yes we can be proud of the fact the number of 16 to 18-year-olds is at a record low as far as NEET status, but there is still so much to do, and we recognise that that's where the framework—the youth engagement and progression framework—is having a real impact. We've mentioned apprenticeships, but the percentage of year 11 school leavers has more than halved in terms of those not entering education, employment or training.
So, I want to finish this debate by thanking Lynne Neagle for bringing forward a very important areafor discussion, continuing, as she is, to press the case for being ambitious in how we widen access to and participation in education and training. This afternoon we were talking and I was being questioned about the well-being of future generations legislation, and we are talking about the generation—. We are looking after education and caring about today, but it is about the future, our future citizens. You talked about that we need to be powered by our citizens of the future as far as younger people are concerned, and there lessons to be learnt not just from England, the English experience—I know the Minister will want to look at the experience in Ontario. I know that she will want to meet you to follow up this debate, which has been very significant, and I know will be of great interest to our learners and educators in Wales.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:31.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the Minister make a statement on the demand for affordable housing?

Julie James: It is clear from data analysis, and from my discussions with partners across the housing sector, that there is significant demand for affordable housing, and social housing in particular. I recognise more homes are needed, which is why building more homes for social rent is a priority for this Government.

Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

David Rees: What analysis has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of its programmes to improve energy efficiency in homes since the start of devolution?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh housing conditions survey, commissioned by the Welsh Government, collected information regarding the energy efficiency of all types of housing in Wales. The statistical release published last December reported average domestic energy efficiency has improved from an EPC band E in 2008, to band D in this latest survey.

Mohammad Asghar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure the viability of farming in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: A suite of advice and support is provided by the Welsh Government through Farming Connect that aims to improve the profitability and resilience of farm businesses. Targeted capital grants and funding through the rural development programme are designed to help farm businesses improve their financial and environmental performance.